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  • #46
    Re: Syria

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    Remember when GW was in office? Poor guy couldn't catch a break. Everything he did the democrats jumped all over him. Called him a cowboy, reckless, dumber than dirt, a druggy and alcoholic, a cheat, incompetent, a liar......everything the republicans are now calling and saying about Obama. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

    YEP, and to make it worse... neither side remembers any of it and will deny it all. Likewise the constituancy will go along with whoever their idol is today and we'll all hanker for the return of those days when our guys were in office.

    Is it any wonder why things never seem to improve?

    CWS

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    • #47
      Re: Syria

      Yep, their like kids in the back seat of a station wagon on a 1000 mile vacation trip.

      I actually feel bad for Obama because even if the poor sod was to ask Rush Limbaugh for advice and take that advice they would still hammer him. I honestly believe that there is intelligence both foreign and domestic that we the people are not privy too and while what we think may be logical to us, we really don't have enough information to make an intelligent decision. I said in a post awhile back that Obama will get congressional approval. I still believe he will but not without a whole lot of political hay making on both sides. It's going to be hard for his supporters on both sides of the aisle to vote yes and then have to explain their vote.
      sigpic

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      • #48
        Re: Syria

        Did you feel sorry for GWB too?

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        • #49
          Re: Syria

          Actually, YES! (But not nearly as sorry for him as I was for all the soldiers and their families, and the country in general.)

          I felt sorry for GW, because he found himself in a position where he didn't have a clue. He was a patsy for Cheney and Rumsfeldt and a political machine run by the hunger of big oil. But ignorance doesn't take away his ultimate responsibility to our military and to the American people.

          I think that most of this concern we show today over taking action in Syria, is because we have seen how easily it is to be duped. We went to war in Iraq based on pure fabrication, nothing that was said to be true...WAS! The majority of reasons given, and most of the facts presented were false in that war. In that war we were no where close to being prepared to manage it well. Yes, we had the military might, but we didn't have the either the political or strategic savvy to carry it out well. We didn't have the leadership, the planning, and the logistical support to handle the invasion properly, and we completely fouled up the initial occupation. And, as I said on this forum many years ago, we created far more terrorists in the whole process.

          All the while we neglected to carry through on operations in Afganistan (for a second time) and that neglect made our situation even more deadly when we finally did proceed in our quest to get the terrorist who were always hiding there.

          Today we are facing the concerns in Syria, with a regime that has shown no moral concern for it's own population. Using chemical weapons is a global sin and "crimes against humanity". It 'slaps the face' of almost a century of rules and conventions against certain types of warfare, and it should not go unpunished. This should enflame every moral-thinking human.

          The problem of course is that we have been lied to before and we have paid dearly for the deceptions of the previous administration. That coupled with the on-going attacks from the right-wing of the Republican party for the last six years and thier constant lies, leaves us with no understanding of what is right or wrong, or for that matter, even an understanding of our position in the world.

          It has left us fearing the rest of the world, fearing our own government, and even fearing our own neighbors. Who do we trust? Nobody! The opposition would have us believe that the only good that can come is to selfishly cut ourselves off from the rest of the world, fortify our borders (and our homes) and place faith only in the arms and ammunitions that we, as individuals, can hoard.

          Personally, the Syrian situation has failed to the extent that we no longer know who is right here. We know that the Assad government is wrong, as they have been for more than forty years. We know that the Russians are wrong in thier support of such a regime. We know that at this point there are too many extremists on both sides of the slaughter. We know that giving arms to the opposition is perilous, because much of that opposition are the same enemy that we face in Iraq, Afganistan, and Iran. Who do we support... that is the question, and until we can have a definitive answer to that, we have very little that we can do, other than to target certain 'key' facilities.... or do nothing, and wait for the strongest to prevail. The choice there is either the Assad dictatorship OR another Islamic pro-terrorist regime. And those two choices are what we get when we don't put in place an intelligence organization that can decipher who's who, and who's best. And that of course has been made impossible by policies that have a history of changing from one administration to another.

          CWS

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          • #50
            Re: Syria

            So they lied about the WMDs that they claimed were moved to Syria?

            The one's we're witnessing now?

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            • #51
              Re: Syria

              As far as our intelligence organizations know (and at least the stories that I have read), what is now in Syria has been in Syria well before our problems with Iraq. Syria was one of the suppliers of weapons during the Iran-Iraq war in which chemical weapons were used. Syria had chemical weapons over twenty and maybe even thirty years ago and may well have used them in earlier uprisings.

              Are you alledging that all this time Iraq really did have WMD and that it was in collution with Syria and transferred all those weapons there?

              Since our occupation of Iraq, there has been no findings of any recent WMD or of any recent production of WMD. If there had been large transfers of such weapons to Syria, why would that be? Saddam Hussien would not have simply handed over such weaponry to a neighboring country, unless he was expecting to flee to there and conduct his defence of Iraq from there... or don't you recall any attempts of the Iraqi army fighting back against our invasion?

              CWS

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              • #52
                Re: Syria

                Originally posted by rofl View Post
                Did you feel sorry for GWB too?
                Yea I do. He was put in a tough position early on. Like Obama, I think he made mistakes but I also think he tried to do what he thought was best for America.
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                • #53
                  Re: Syria

                  CWS

                  Are these the same intelligence organizations that said a youtube video was responsible for Benghazi?

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                  • #54
                    Re: Syria

                    It's going to be hard for his supporters on both sides of the aisle to vote
                    yes and then have to explain their vote.
                    Especially if that decision is made based on intel that can't be revealed to the public.
                    And the reasons it can't be could be one or more of many.
                    "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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                    • #55
                      Re: Syria

                      Originally posted by rofl View Post
                      CWS

                      Are these the same intelligence organizations that said a youtube video was responsible for Benghazi?
                      Probably, but not necessarily would they all be the same. Are you saying that the video had absolutely NO counter-U.S. effects in anyway? (Maybe you need to go look at that video again.)

                      I do not believe that the video you mention was the cause of the Bengazi attack. We all know how these terrorists work and they didn't need the video as an excuse. There was a failure in this incident. BUT exactly what was that failure? In actuality the failure was on many levels, but a major factor was of financial support from a Congress that had been and continues to be obstructing the military, intellegence, and foreign involvements of the present administration.

                      In spite of what some would make you believe, the Obama administration (as with any administration) cannot move security forces at will for long periods. It has a budget that it must act within. And, like all administrations it does make mistakes too. It juggles and moves assets as it seems best and in that appraisal things don't always work out, mistakes are made, and sometimes that leads to fatalities.

                      Now, if you want to compare "fatal mistakes" how do you account for the thousands lost in Iraq, with absolutely no gains? No WMD, thousands of new terrorists, the uncountable $Billions, tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, thousands of Americans killed, tens of thousands of American lives disrupted, maimed, families disrupted, divorces, and suicides.

                      Compared to that I can see how the Republicans and thier supporters would like to focus on Bengazi as much as possible.

                      CWS

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                      • #56
                        Re: Syria

                        So.....what you are telling me....is that you aren't going to be the first person in the history of the internet to change his mind?

                        Me either.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Syria

                          Anybody can be wrong when they are given the wrong information, so yes I change my mind when I learn something that should change it. But I don't think that is the case here as I don't see where I stated any change of opinion.

                          Actually I am not at a point where I have a definite opinion on the Syria situation and any attack that we might be able to take. I'm waiting for more information, just like most of the world. As stated earlier, the sides are not clear and probably will not be clear in the near future. The subject at hand is whether or not we need to militarily strike Syria, and once that is decided what would be targeted that would satisfy the objective of preventing any further use of chemical agents.

                          At this point, it is not our objective to topple the regime or to sway the balance of power over to the other side. Until we know what the "other side" represents politically, we need to keep our politics to ourselves and our allies. BUT, the use of chemical weapons mandates a punishment, that much is clear.

                          (One of the problems I believe we have as a world power is forcing our political ideals onto others. There are many peoples in the world who don't particularly care for "Democracy". Perhaps it's just that they don't understand it or perhaps they are happy with not facing the choices and reponsibilities that should go with it. Of course we can all see that there are many people right here who don't like Democracy either, unless it favors them and their choices.

                          There is nothing wrong with other forms of governance as long as it is benelovent to the people that it governs. Like all things though, power has a tendency to corrupt those who wield it.... and that is the truth of any political system, including Democracy.

                          CWS
                          Last edited by CWSmith; 09-07-2013, 04:23 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Syria

                            I'm still completely at a loss on this issue. The more I learn the less sure I am of the course of action or inaction! Like many I am most concerned over the repercussions of a limited strike on our part, possibly turning into a major military action.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Syria

                              Right now our problem is Vladimir Putin.
                              sigpic

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                              • #60
                                Re: Syria

                                Just let the CIA and Israeli intelligence handle this one:
                                A six man team equipped with a radio, a scope, a spotter, and a .50 caliber rifle.

                                It's what Reagan would have done.

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