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  • #16
    Re: Snowden

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    I can see him as a whistle blower and good guy for alerting Americans, but once he started divulging information regarding international spying he crossed the line! Where the heck is his allegience to foreign countries, especially when they all do the same thing to us? I suppose communist china has not spied on us, stolen industrial secrets, hack into our secured sites? He stopped being a good guy a while back in my opinion.
    I'll ask again. What real proof has anyone shown that he "divulged information regarding international spying"?

    Show me something. ANYTHING from a non-biased party proving this.

    Where is the American people's allegiance to him & the expectation of privacy?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Snowden

      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
      I think GB is more heavily monitored than the US.
      At least they used to be #1 in the spy on your citiznes business.
      I am sure we are catching up if not taking the lead.

      There was apiece on 60 Minutes a while back talking about it. The police
      tracked a bank robber from the scene of the crime right to the door of his flat
      and never lost sight of him in their cameras. The facial recognition software they
      (and no doubt us) use is pretty amazing. The license plate scanning software the
      police run in their cruisers can read plates as they drive through a parking lot at
      15 mph(side view), and head on while traveling at over 50 mph.

      And just because your credit card doesn't get dinged every time your e-z-pass is read
      doesn't mean its not being read where you least expect it. Those readers could be anywhere
      and you would never know it, but they would have a record of your vehicle passing through
      with a date/time stamp and probably a photo of who was driving to boot.
      I watched it or something similar on GB. They have cameras EVERYWHERE. Like a casino.

      I also did work for someone that did work for someone (lol) that designed and demonstrated the plate scanning system for law enforcement you speak of. I think his was even faster. Had to be a certain percentage accurate moving through a lot. Beat the percentage by a mile. So I know what you speak of to be true.

      You're probably dead on about EZ pass & photos as well.

      Here's the catch in that though. There is no expectation of privacy granted in those public domains. Nor has their ever been to my knowledge. Technology has currently made it "feel" more invasive, but they cannot turn the camera on your homes window and peek in legally.

      There is, or at least was, an expectation of privacy granted in phone conversations and email. If it's ok to look in someone's email, and people have condoned it by their silence, then it should be 100% ok with them for any government entity to go into their mailbox and open their physical mail at any time without any reasonable suspicion.

      Someone rides up in a black car, black suit, black sunglasses. Goes in your mailbox and opens everything to make sure there is nothing out of "order".

      Maybe everyone is ok with that as well.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Snowden

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        The reality is that less than a dozen people have forever effected the lives of millions. We put up with the NSA and the TSA and the patriot act because we are frankly, scared of the alternative.
        I think this is partially right. The willingness to accept some loss of privacy with the thought that it will somehow provide increased safety.

        But I think it is tolerated more because it doesn't "feel" invasive to people. Out of sight, out of mind.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Snowden

          Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
          I'll ask again. What real proof has anyone shown that he "divulged information regarding international spying"?

          Show me something. ANYTHING from a non-biased party proving this.

          Where is the American people's allegiance to him & the expectation of privacy?
          The expectation of privacy is nonexistent. Hold onto your illusion of security and faith in our elected officials. Let's take off the blinders and admit there is no santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy, or honest politicians. Snowden is an opportunist, not a guy who cares about us. The spying is not going to ever stop, and neither will the lies. "I'm not a crook", "Read my lips, no new taxes", "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", " If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan". Snowden did not help us, he helped foreign governments. The only unbiased (what a joke that is) source is me. I have no hidden agenda, no political agenda, just the common sense to realize what all this amounts to. We are just along for the ride!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Snowden

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            The expectation of privacy is nonexistent. Hold onto your illusion of security and faith in our elected officials. Let's take off the blinders and admit there is no santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy, or honest politicians. Snowden is an opportunist, not a guy who cares about us. The spying is not going to ever stop, and neither will the lies. "I'm not a crook", "Read my lips, no new taxes", "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", " If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan". Snowden did not help us, he helped foreign governments. The only unbiased (what a joke that is) source is me. I have no hidden agenda, no political agenda, just the common sense to realize what all this amounts to. We are just along for the ride!
            Sorry Franki, while you continue to ride "Franki's DoomFest 2013 and Beyond!" you have provided zero proof to the allegations.

            And "opportunist" at this point seems to be so incorrect I want to call someone to check on you. Look what he has received up to now. Opportunist? Crazy assessment.

            It's interesting though that you and this person, like it or not, are in agreement that the government is doing nefarious things. And they punished him for exposing part of it. Meanwhile, you seem to be against him too!

            Is he non-union?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Snowden

              Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
              Sorry Franki, while you continue to ride "Franki's DoomFest 2013 and Beyond!" you have provided zero proof to the allegations.

              And "opportunist" at this point seems to be so incorrect I want to call someone to check on you. Look what he has received up to now. Opportunist? Crazy assessment.

              It's interesting though that you and this person, like it or not, are in agreement that the government is doing nefarious things. And they punished him for exposing part of it. Meanwhile, you seem to be against him too!

              Is he non-union?
              I'm crazy? Get it through your head, we are doomed!!! Our government didn't just starting doing "nefarious" () things, grow up. You really thought you had privacy? Now that's what I call crazy. My proof is that he is living in sunny russia. If he was not providing useful information to those nice folks, they would kick him to the curb. Don't forget to vote tomorrow, your vote counts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Snowden

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                I'm crazy? Get it through your head, we are doomed!!! Our government didn't just starting doing "nefarious" () things, grow up. You really thought you had privacy? Now that's what I call crazy. My proof is that he is living in sunny russia. If he was not providing useful information to those nice folks, they would kick him to the curb. Don't forget to vote tomorrow, your vote counts.
                All governments have probably done "nefarious" things. Even the government that is your beloved union. But as long as the benefits are there and the check keeps coming....all the dirty things they have done are a-ok. Don't believe that's true? You better grow up yourself.

                No, I never said I thought we had real privacy. There has been, however, rules to govern & protect privacy. Even held up in court multiple times. During this time it could have been violated all along.

                All I'm saying is that now someone has provided concrete evidence of it happening, which historically and legally is not supposed to be done, and everyone has elected to be ok with it.

                IF you conclude him staying in Russia was done for providing them with all kinds of glorious information then it would just as reasonable to conclude that the U.S. would have him have an accident real soon.

                Now were really getting Tom Clancy. Again, with zero real proof.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Snowden

                  Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
                  All governments have probably done "nefarious" things. Even the government that is your beloved union. But as long as the benefits are there and the check keeps coming....all the dirty things they have done are a-ok. Don't believe that's true? You better grow up yourself.

                  No, I never said I thought we had real privacy. There has been, however, rules to govern & protect privacy. Even held up in court multiple times. During this time it could have been violated all along.

                  All I'm saying is that now someone has provided concrete evidence of it happening, which historically and legally is not supposed to be done, and everyone has elected to be ok with it.

                  IF you conclude him staying in Russia was done for providing them with all kinds of glorious information then it would just as reasonable to conclude that the U.S. would have him have an accident real soon.

                  Now were really getting Tom Clancy. Again, with zero real proof.
                  Bob, I'm with you on all governments, Unions, many trusted professionals and clergy alike. I don't believe we have had privacy in the past, and we certainly will not have it going forward regardless of snowden. Our enemies will however have more dirt on us in addition to their own dirty hands. Whne the time is right snowden will be taken out or brought to justice. He accomplished nothing of value for we the people or his country. I hope he enjoys russia.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Snowden

                    Interesting to read of everyone's reaction and feelings about so-called "surveilance" by the government.

                    Pesonally speaking I'm not surprised by it, nor am I surprised by the system, it's capabilities, or its presence. Security, or should I say personal security, is more in the numbers. Think about it, there are millions, if not billions of phones out there, and the numbers of actual e-mails and phone conversations are astronomical. While I'm sure the government could separate me from the pack, why would they do so? There is nothing whatsoever noteworthy that would raise a flag, and like everything else in the world, it cost money for them to go after an individual. So "security" or "privacy" is not particularly in the fact that they could, but in the fact that the numbers are so high that it seems unlikely and cost prohibitive to spend time unless there is some "flag" that raises concern.

                    But, is this really any different than the past? Only in the technology I think. I remember even my Mom and Dad talking about censure of the letters they sent to each other in WWII, with certain words being cut out of their letters. We also had a part line during the 50's, so you never could be sure if he neighbors were eavesdropping.

                    In more modern times, every cordless phone could easily be listened to, with something as simple as a shortwave radio, or even another "cordless". Every office phone could be monitored, for every employer that I ever worked, as all lines went through the company switchboard. With the employer that I retired from, every incoming and outgoing phone number was recorded, along with the length of the phone connection, and those were tabulated and sent to dept managers on a monthly basis. Likewise visits to the infirmery were recorded, as was you badge number as you moved through the facility or in and out of the plant itself. About the only thing the employer didn't record was how many times you went to the bathroom... and that was probably just left up to your supervisor.

                    Even in the local post office (a small village), they knew who you were, and what kind of mail you were receiving. I remember being "friendfully questioned" as to why my six year son was receiving foreign mail, especially from Moscow, and Communist China (He was an avid shortwave listener and used to QSL all the stations in the world that he could receive.)

                    The point is that "privacy" has always been more a state of mind than it has been a reality. This latest news is simply a confirmation of the level that technology now allows. You don't have to like it, and you can hate it as much as you want (I certainly don't like it), but really the important thing is that you know it exists.

                    The question and the real problem of the matter is whether or not the government or anyone else is tabulating the information and gathering data on the general population.... and that is where my main concern would be. Not that I'd like to think that some individual or group of people are listening in on my phone convesations, but rather that they are accumulation information and trying to align me with someone who might be considered criminal or a threat.

                    But really, I think most of us, and overwhelming majority of us, conduct ourselves in the old-style of "don't do anything that you wouldn't want your grandmother to see or hear". Maybe not, but surely most conversations, just like here on the forum are pretty innocuous. (Well, there is Franki )

                    Bottom line is that surveilance is out there, it always has been to some degree. Technology, and our own habits and desires to communicate them through through our cell phones, and computer activities makes them all too easy to record... almost by anyone. How many tracks are you leaving every single day?

                    But just remember, if we totally ban any kind of surveilance, what does that give the terrorists of the world? The answer there isn't a good one, and of course we have to express some kind of balance between security and infringement. I think the best guard against infringement is to not present a high-profile in electronic communications over public systems. But if you have nothing whatsoever to hide, than you should have nothing whatsoever to fear. (Now, are they gonna come after me for my 50 year-old 22, or those old Playboy's..... maybe? I know I myself have hidden away my old military manuals on counterinsurgency and field survival .

                    CWS

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Snowden

                      J.Edgar Hoover

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Snowden

                        That bloody Snowden I did`t care when it was effecting the US but now he is effecting Australia and that dam hick country to our north Indonesia wants us to kowtow again just because we tapped their presidents phone its no good telling you secretes you just blab them all over the place

                        Tony

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Snowden

                          They will ring Him dry of info. on our Country. Then kill Him, and say We did it . He is a dead Man walking !
                          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Snowden

                            Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                            They will ring Him dry of info. on our Country. Then kill Him, and say We did it . He is a dead Man walking !
                            Yes you may be right the Russians have invited the Indonesians over to find if there are anymore embarrassing phone tappings done by Australia so they can try to gain the moral high ground gee don`t your CIA and your other spooks check out the people that work for them and how do these people walk out with all this secret information in the first place.

                            Tony
                            Tony

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Snowden

                              Originally posted by AFM View Post
                              don`t your CIA and your other spooks check out the people that work for them and how do these people walk out with all this secret information in the first place."
                              Very good question Tony!

                              When the Snowden case broke, that was the first question that popped into my head. Here we are blaming Snowden (certainly he is to be blamed), but how does a "dropout" get a high-security job with obviously NO background investigation and no supervisory or security oversight? Who's to be blamed for his security clearance, and who is to be blamed for not restricting his file allocation and certainly his download capability???

                              I remember when I got my first "Secret" clearance, for doing business with IBM's Federal Systems Division. it took a few weeks for the paperwork and the background checks to be done. And while that allowed me access to data so that we could do the art illustrations and Pentagon presentation graphics, it in no way gave us clearance for any kind of activity or knowledge beyond those project requirements. Even then, every thing was numbered, checked, logged in and out, and "certified". Our facility was checked numerous times, as was all of our people.

                              At the Rand, I had security responsibility for our group, and worked with Systems to get and oversee access for every employee. That was just a minor side responsibility, but as the "computer guy", I was the knowledgeable one, designing database programs. The Systems dept could monitor everything, including phone calls. And they could tell who was downloading anything from the central system. As well, security at the gates, as well as within the facility monitored against unauthorized photography, and what kinds of materials were allowed to leave.

                              And that was nothing compared to what Snowden had access to!

                              Really, how relaxed can some of our security be in too many places, and how in the world can someone of this education level possibly get a job anywhere outside of Walmart, much less something as security critical as this job was?

                              CWS

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Snowden

                                Maybe they were with the" Not so secret service" ,with Hookers, checking their clearances , under the sheets !
                                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                                Comment

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