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  • The South China Sea

    Ah seeing that the Middle Eastern wars are over it looks like we are heading to Asia I hope you don`t mind me saying we as we get dragged in eveytime but this time we are up against a giant and really I couldn`t care less who owns the oil or gas under those crappy islands off Japan

    Tony

  • #2
    Re: The South China Sea

    UHG ,THE STICK IN OUR EYE ! You are so predictable Tony
    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The South China Sea

      Originally posted by AFM View Post
      Ah seeing that the Middle Eastern wars are over it looks like we are heading to Asia I hope you don`t mind me saying we as we get dragged in eveytime but this time we are up against a giant and really I couldn`t care less who owns the oil or gas under those crappy islands off Japan

      Tony
      Not to worry, Obama put Biden in charge.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The South China Sea

        I don't think that either China, Japan, or the U.S. wants to have a major confrontation over this area. We ALL have too much to loose.

        You have to understand the history of this area, and especially the history between China and Japan as these islands have been a point of concern for a very long time. Especially you have to understand the role of Japan, and it's treatment of China in the first four decades of the 20th Century. At that time, China was our allie, NOT Japan. Japan's invasion of China and it's criminal treatment (war crimes against humanity, if you will) during its occupation is well documented.

        However, today Japan recognizes none of that and in fact neglects to mention any of it in its education or official history. For those (contested) islands to be granted to Japan, is to the Chinese, a national insult and has been for more than 70 years.

        Now that China has regained its global position economically, AND is also growing militarily, it is not surprising that it should want to regain those earlier bounderies, as it see them. The question is whether there is enough importance placed on those by China, to go to war over. That may not be it's position at this time, and I'm of the thought that this is only a trial to see how far the U.S. and Japan are willing to go in their defense. If we carefully take the proper steps, I think China will back off; but at some point in the future, China will have the power (and we know that quite well) to dominate that contested territory. Japan for its part needs to correct its history and work out its differences with China.

        The question is what is important here. Are those islands economically vital to whoever owns them, and are they rich in petroleum or other vital natural resources? And if so, are their "wealth" worth going to war over? China and Japan are already growing closer economically, as have China and the U.S.. So, are those crucial economic ties worth the risk of having a war. China needs oil resources far worse than we do; and, they certainly need to keep both the U.S. and Japan as partners in their economic growth. I don't think they are at a point where they are willing to risk that, but of course that's just an educated guess, on my part, at this point. I do know that China needs to get off it's dependance on coal because of it's pollution, and to that end it needs all the oil it can get.... but does this contested territory have those kind of natural resources?

        CWS
        Last edited by CWSmith; 12-07-2013, 11:28 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The South China Sea

          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
          I don't think that either China, Japan, or the U.S. wants to have a major confrontation over this area. We ALL have too much to loose.

          You have to understand the history of this area, and especially the history between China and Japan as these islands have been a point of concern for a very long time. Especially you have to understand the role of Japan, and it's treatment of China in the first four decades of the 20th Century. At that time, China was our allie, NOT Japan. Japan's invasion of China and it's criminal treatment (war crimes against humanity, if you will) during its occupation is well documented.

          However, today Japan recognizes none of that and in fact neglects to mention any of it in its education or official history. For those (contested) islands to be granted to Japan, is to the Chinese, a national insult and has been for more than 70 years.

          Now that China has regained its global position economically, AND is also growing militarily, it is not surprising that it should want to regain those earlier bounderies, as it see them. The question is whether there is enough importance placed on those by China, to go to war over. That may not be it's position at this time, and I'm of the thought that this is only a trial to see how far the U.S. and Japan are willing to go in their defense. If we carefully take the proper steps, I think China will back off; but at some point in the future, China will have the power (and we know that quite well) to dominate that contested territory. Japan for its part needs to correct its history and work out its differences with China.

          The question is what is important here. Are those islands economically vital to whoever owns them, and are they rich in petroleum or other vital natural resources? And if so, are their "wealth" worth going to war over? China and Japan are already growing closer economically, as have China and the U.S.. So, are those crucial economic ties worth the risk of having a war. China needs oil resources far worse than we do; and, they certainly need to keep both the U.S. and Japan as partners in their economic growth. I don't think they are at a point where they are willing to risk that, but of course that's just an educated guess, on my part, at this point. I do know that China needs to get off it's dependance on coal because of it's pollution, and to that end it needs all the oil it can get.... but does this contested territory have those kind of natural resources?

          CWS
          You're an excellent Histort teacher ! Tanks Tool
          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The South China Sea

            Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
            I don't think that either China, Japan, or the U.S. wants to have a major confrontation over this area. We ALL have too much to loose.

            You have to understand the history of this area, and especially the history between China and Japan as these islands have been a point of concern for a very long time. Especially you have to understand the role of Japan, and it's treatment of China in the first four decades of the 20th Century. At that time, China was our allie, NOT Japan. Japan's invasion of China and it's criminal treatment (war crimes against humanity, if you will) during its occupation is well documented.

            However, today Japan recognizes none of that and in fact neglects to mention any of it in its education or official history. For those (contested) islands to be granted to Japan, is to the Chinese, a national insult and has been for more than 70 years.

            Now that China has regained its global position economically, AND is also growing militarily, it is not surprising that it should want to regain those earlier bounderies, as it see them. The question is whether there is enough importance placed on those by China, to go to war over. That may not be it's position at this time, and I'm of the thought that this is only a trial to see how far the U.S. and Japan are willing to go in their defense. If we carefully take the proper steps, I think China will back off; but at some point in the future, China will have the power (and we know that quite well) to dominate that contested territory. Japan for its part needs to correct its history and work out its differences with China.

            The question is what is important here. Are those islands economically vital to whoever owns them, and are they rich in petroleum or other vital natural resources? And if so, are their "wealth" worth going to war over? China and Japan are already growing closer economically, as have China and the U.S.. So, are those crucial economic ties worth the risk of having a war. China needs oil resources far worse than we do; and, they certainly need to keep both the U.S. and Japan as partners in their economic growth. I don't think they are at a point where they are willing to risk that, but of course that's just an educated guess, on my part, at this point. I do know that China needs to get off it's dependance on coal because of it's pollution, and to that end it needs all the oil it can get.... but does this contested territory have those kind of natural resources?

            CWS
            Thats what I have never understood how the Japanese got away with covering up its war crimes from its public and the world as Germany didn`t and is still paying as Japan was conquered and General Macarther had total control for years afterwards until he was thrown out over comments about the Koran war which Truman didn`t like but the US still had control over Japan and don`t tell me the US gave the money from the Marshall Plan free of charge without strings attached something is vary wrong which happened 70 years ago

            Tony

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            • #7
              Re: The South China Sea

              Tony,

              This is only my opinion, and to some degree I think that the history of the last 70 years or so backs me up.

              Essentially, the U.S. is dominated by it's corporate rich; and they are totally in love with "capitalism", so much so that they lean very heavily toward the 'Right'. Saying this, unfortunately for me, makes me sound like a Communist, which I am definitely NOT! But follow for a minute if you will, my thoughts on this.

              We as a nation have been educated almost since the moment we could listen and talk, that "Communism" is the most evil of political thoughts. The WHY of that is simply that "Communism" destroys the concept of individuality, and that it opposes the "capitalist" concept that hard work will always be rewarded and that failure is only because you didn't work hard enough or weren't smart enough. While individuality and working hard for reward is the basis of "capitalism", it dismisses any idea that greed and power can be evil. The results is that the greed of the 'few' over the good of the 'many' is a good thing, and thus we as a nation will not except any idea that our rich and powerful corporate elite are anything but wonderful and good for the country.

              (One might ask themselves which came first, Communism or Capitalism... I think the answer would be found that "Communism" is a backlash to the evils of greed, that Capitalism too often spawns... eventually the people get fed up with high prices, poor wages, and seeing the rich get all the favor, while the rest of us get the scraps, "trickle-down economics".)

              When we had the many failures of economy and labor during the 19th Century, it was never the fault of the Railroad, Mining, Banking, Steel, ... all that failure was cast upon the immigrant, the negro, the Indians and the more liberal political powers of that time. At the turn of the Century, the U.S. became a major world power for the first time, and our Spanish-American War was a major part of that, as we kicked Spain out of OUR hemisphere and we took the Philippines as part of that. We introduced our own concepts of political imperialism ("Banana Republics"), taking Cuba, Panama, the Philippines and many other smaller territories for our own corporate profits. And we also introduced ourselves to China and Japan! What went on iin places like Cuba, Panama, and the Philippines is not talked about very much and certainly has been glossed over very nicely in our own education system, much like what Japan has done with its history in China in the 30's and 40's. In China we very much backed those of a more dictatorial role.

              After WWI (the war to end all wars), our Republican party, being the party of "the corporation" scuttled the Treaty of Versaille, stopped any support or participation in the League of Nations and immediately set about to invest for profit in the renewal of Europe... an anti-communist Europe. To that end, we invested more than twice as much in Germany (Nazi Germany) than we did in all of the rest of Europe, including Great Britain and her Dominions. After all, Germany WAS anti-Communists!

              In China we sharply supported the rise of Chiang Kai-shek, as he too was anti-Communist. Japan had risen to be a major power, with a fleet tonnage that rivaled the western powers. While certainly not communist, the nature of Japan's imperial dynasty and militarism were a sharp contrast to America's ideas, and were equally troublesome to America's corporate interests. We had made tremendous profits in selling the iron, coal, machinery, and steel to help Japan build it's great Navy. But when Japan invaded China, (partly in it's quest to find alternative resources other than America), we as a nation took to opposing such ventures. And to follow up on that there were a series of Naval Treaties that limited Japan's Naval growth (The Washington Navy Treaty of 1922; London Naval Treaty 1930; Second London Naval Treaty 1936). The latter, IIRC, actually would have required that Japan scuttle a major portion of her fleet. As one might imagine, this sort of backed Japan into a rather untenable corner!

              And of course with our great economic help, post WWI Germany was able to grow it's military power to be well beyond all of Europe's and even our own at the time. (One of the first things the New Republican dominance did after WWI was to greatly diminish the nation's debt to the military [sound familiar?], because we supposedly didn't want to waste government money... and so the U.S. military shrank to almost nothing. They also tried to back out of pensions and other benefits promised to the veteran's of WWI, to the point that there were riots in Washington!

              So here we were at the time, creating a great Germany with U.S. investment and telling Japan that she had to destroy the fleet that our many investments there had built. Winston Churchill, referred to WWII as "The Unnecessary War", and for very good reasons. While France and much of Europe and England had some responsibility to that reasoning, I think that the business interests, and corporate influence of the U.S. played a very large part. And of course, when WWII broke out, guess who made even greater profits ?

              So in the end, we suddenly found our Chinese Allie being pushed out of China by the Communists... and since we then occupied Japan and became its new Governor, of course we would do all that we could to make our old enemy as clean as possible and our new enemy as evil as possible. So, politically we thought that "old crimes" weren't worth the telling, and China wasn't worth recognizing, especially not as a nation who was suffering from the aftermath of it's Japanese occupation.

              What we, as a country did, politically, after WWII would make waves for all my generation. We influenced the divide in Vietnam, reinforced and financed a renewed French colonialism there; we divided Korea, and we backed a corrupt dictator in Cuba, all in an effort of anti-communism.

              When I was a younger guy (teens) I used to joke that the U.S. would have backed Hitler, if it would help us fight communism. The Vietnam war was only beginning to crank up at the time (1962). The sad part of that was it took years for me to see what was going on, years before I saw that WE actually had helped to create Hitler and build the Nazi War Machine.

              Sad I think that we don't teach a better history, a truer history.

              CWS
              Last edited by CWSmith; 12-08-2013, 04:42 PM. Reason: Clarification edits are in italics

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The South China Sea

                Thank you again for a great post. Your ability to cut through the common misconceptions and omissions is rare indeed. Many of the frustrations come from reading the ignorant posts of a lot of folks that get their only information from what can only be considered questionable sources. I have long contended that anyone that truly takes the time to study and understand history and those events that led up to where we sit today, would soundly and completely reject anything at all coming out of the GOP and the tea party.

                Here's a question for the regressives in the crowd although I doubt any will be able to give the correct answer.

                Why do you think the Conservative party has aligned themselves with the NRA and their interpretation of the 2nd amendment? Hint, their love of the constitution has got squat to do with it. Lol
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The South China Sea

                  CW its always interesting reading your views as you know a lot more about American history than I do what always angered me as an Australian and I suppose the Chinese was how the Japanese war criminals who ran their labour death camps that killed so many Australians and many other soldiers and civilians got off in comparision to how many Nazi were tried and convicted and hung at Nuremberg it seems the US had it out more for the Nazi then the Japanese

                  Tony

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The South China Sea

                    Tony,

                    I really don't believe that is the case. From what I have read, many of the Japanese responsible for war crimes simply died in conflict or committed suicide in the aftermath of defeat. The other part of the ordeal was that in the European war, the Nazi war criminals were for the most part, higher in the command structure and as the war progressed they 'fell-back' into Germany. They were also much easier to identify and locate as record keeping was one of the high-marks of Nazi machine.

                    In the Pacific, and especially in the Malay Penisula, withdrawal was not an option as in the last months of the war the allies controlled the skys and had a stranglehold over any escape by sea or air. The Japanese command structure (and war criminals) and many of their troops perished, often by their own hand, as they were unable to fall-back to Japan. Along with that destruction was much of the administration records.

                    I think some war criminals escaped from both sides, but especially in the case of the Japanese I believe many were dispatched "in the field". It was not an uncommon thing for field orders to be given as, "take them over the hill and be back in twenty minutes". One must remember of that time, that the Japanese were HATED, much because their resistance was maniacal, but also because they were racially different; and we as a nation found them much easier to villify as little yellow, near-sighted, monkey-like creatures. The Germans looked too much like us, and were very much a part of our white culture. Right up to the break-out of the war, Nazism was found in almost every major American city. Even here in Binghamton, we had a very large German culture, especially with the Agfa film plant being a major employer. It was not uncommon to find many German cultural celebrations and even family outings and camps in which people of heritage and sympathizers, marched in support and awe of the great German industrial state and thier leader Adolf Hitler.

                    (An awful lot of that was in opposition to our President Roosevelt and his administration's efforts to liberal reform of social policies and to help the economic recovery from the Great Depression.... and this is very much like what is going in our country today, in which a devisive Congress and their supporters are standing extreme against President Obama an the economic recovery and healthcare reforms.)

                    Even when Germany overran Europe, marched into Paris, and were forming the Tripartide of Germany, Italy, and Japan we had a major faction in America that thought it was a good thing! This was to such an extreme that even on December 7th with the news of Pearl Harbor, certain leaders of the GOP couldn't admit to the truth of it and were in fact were still against supporting Britain and her dominions in their struggle against the Axis powers.

                    You may also want to know, that while many Germans still worked in American industry during the early years of the war effort (and many as spies and supporters of Germany), almost anyone of Japanese heritage were rounded up and put into "internment" camps! Japanese, even those born here in the U.S. were ordered to leave their home and property within a very small time frame and turn themselves into the authorities where they were individually inspected, identified, tagged, and taken away for "relocation" in these camps. They lost their jobs, homes, and businesses, including much of that lush farmland in California.

                    So Tony, I doubt that any Japanese were overlooked for whatever crimes committed. But one can never be really sure, the Victor may well perceive that in forgiveness there may be profit.

                    (BTW, thanks for interest, it's appreciated)

                    CWS

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