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  • PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

    2 plumbing supply vendors in my area. 1 carries only the cinch clamps, another carries only the rings. When I asked the second vendor why he didn't have cinch clamps in stock, the response was that they were unreliable. Is this true? I only roughed a few times with cinch clamps and I didn't get any callbacks, but if they are in fact unreliable, I am going to drop cinch clamp installation all together. Anyone out there can comment? Would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Josh; 05-01-2007, 08:11 AM. Reason: Duplicate

  • #2
    Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

    Originally posted by Avellino
    2 plumbing supply vendors in my area. 1 carries only the cinch clamps, another carries only the rings. When I asked the second vendor why he didn't have cinch clamps in stock, the response was that they were unreliable. Is this true? I only roughed a few times with cinch clamps and I didn't get any callbacks, but if they are in fact unreliable, I am going to drop cinch clamp installation all together. Anyone out there can comment? Would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance
    When you say cinch clamps are you asking about Otiker clamps?

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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    • #3
      Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

      This type??

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      • #4
        Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

        Correct. That's the one

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        • #5
          Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

          By rings, are describing the expansion type rings. If so, I am certified for those, but only used them once. It was the process water used in a kidney dialisis center. It was spected in the project documents.


          I wasn't sold on the system, it seemed cheesy. But a year later I returned, there was no leaks. I remember it wasn't easy. The expansion tool is ackward in tight places. They ran that system at (if I remember right) 120 degrees.

          What does this mean? Not much. A year is nothing in the life of a plumbing system. That's just my experience.
          the dog

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          • #6
            Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

            Originally posted by Josh View Post
            This type??

            This appears to be an Otiker clamp. I have a project I am working on where several of these have snaped at the water heater transitions. I am not certain as to the cause of the failures yet but I would probably not recommend them until I figure it out why they are failing.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

              The crimp rings are better than the cinch clamps (Otiker) but expansion rings are the best (Uponor) More important than the joining system is the pipe itself. Not all pex is created equal. The three different types of pex tubing are Pex A, Pex B and Pex C. All three are manufactured using a different method.

              PEX-A
              This variety of PEX is produced by the peroxide (Engel) method. This method performs "hot" cross-linking, above the crystal melting temperature. It provides more consistent and uniform cross-linking with better control over the production process. However the process takes longer and tends to be more expensive than the other two methods, as the polymer has to be kept at high temperature and pressure for long periods during the extrusion process.This process tends to produce the best material.

              PEX-B
              The silane method, also called the "moisture cure" method, results in PEX-B. In this method, cross-linking is performed in a secondary post-extrusion process, producing cross-links between a cross-linking agent (eg. vinylsilane) and a catalyst added into the polymer matrix during extrusion. One of several processes, eg. Sioplas, Spherisil or Monosil, are used in this method. The process is accelerated with heat and moisture. Unlike PEX-A and PEX-C, the bonds are not between the carbon atoms, but are realized as oxygen-silicon-oxygen bridges.

              PEX-C
              PEX-C is produced by the electron irradiation method, in a "cold" cross-linking process, ie. below the crystal melting temperature. It provides less uniform, lower-degree cross-linking than the Engel method, especially at tube diameters over 1", and when the process is not controlled properly, the outer layer of the tubes may become brittle. However, it is the cleanest, most environmentally friendly method of the three, as it does not involve other chemicals and uses only high-energy electrons to split the carbon-hydrogen bonds and facilitate cross-linking. Because the irradiation takes place after the HDPE tube is produced, cross-linking may be performed in a separate facility

              Uponor (wirsbo) and Rehau are the only manufactures on Pex A tubing.

              In the past 20+ years as a plumber I have installed pretty much every potable water piping under the sun. With poly b I used the crimp system as with bow pex and vangaurd and others. I've installed 100s of 1000s of feet of the stuff. In the mid 90s I started using Uponors Wirsbo Aquapex with the expansion ring system. Now I won't use anything else! A few reasons I like the Wirsbo system are ... its easier to use in a tight space, you expand it then put the fitting in. Rather than trying to get the crimp tool into a tight space with the joint already assembled and the ring sliding up and down the pipe. If you have a problem with a fitting with the crimp system its damn near impossible to get the the rings off and reuse the fitting, where as with Wirsbo you just heat the pipe or cut the ring length wise and get your fitting back. You can't leave a open wirsbo line without knowing it. Crimp style you can put the pipe in and put the ring on and forget to crimp it and wont know until you roll water or air. However two of the three can be avoided if your paying attention but you still have to fight those joints that are in tight spaces. Also with Wirsbo you can use both pneumatic and battery powered expanders.
              Last edited by Hondahead; 04-30-2007, 11:43 PM.
              You will never expand your mind, if you do not challenge your beliefs.

              By the reading of this post, you acknowledge and agree that the poster shall not be responsible or liable, directly or indirectly, for any damage or loss caused or alleged to be caused by or in connection with use of or reliance on any content contained herein.

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              • #8
                Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                Negative on the unreliable. They're made of stainless steel which is less prone to vibration than the soft standard brass rings. Also, SS; no problem with corrosion. 1 crimper does 4 sizes and only cost CHEAP(ebay). The best thing I like is the crimper exposes the entire ring while crimping so you can adjust and make every crimp perfect. I have a theory that everyone paid 10 times as much for 3 crimpers (1/2, 3/4 1") and doesn't want to admit that the watts crimper is better so they just continue to tread forward to get their money's worth out of it. I do a sample of joints on a hydrostatic tester after I do roughly 1000 joints since their is no go/no go gauge(another advantage). Stick with the cinchclamp.
                Buy cheap, buy twice.

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                • #9
                  Re: Pex: Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                  Honda, do you get kickbacks from Uponor, you sound like a salesman.

                  I use the crimp ring , I just find it much quicker than Wirsbo(Uponor). The new landscaper rings don't impress me.

                  To me it's really 6 in one, half a dozen in the other. It's the same old discussion, "taste great--less filling" , Ford vs. Chevy , etc.. What the real difference is how good the salesman blew smoke up your butt and if you believed him.

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                  • #10
                    Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                    Well everyone, thank-you for the responses. If the cinch clamps were so unreliable, I would assume they would have been pulled by now given the polyb fiasco years ago. The crimpers for the rings cost a fortune if you buy them seperate. (1/2, 3/4, 1 inch) ...500$ dollars for 1 service truck ...what do I do with my other one? Wait for my first service truck to come in, then swap the tools??? if you buy the all in one, it's a pain in the rear to constantly change the head. Sure I want the best for my customer's, furthermore don't want to be hit with a lawsuit either ...but it's kind of annoying when a plumbing supply vendor says "unreliable" without providing evidence.

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                    • #11
                      Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                      I was talking to the worsboro rep today at my local supply house. I had previously bought the crimp rings that your asking about. Then a few months ago they stopped carrying them. Supposedly according to the rep the reason they no longer have them is due to the fact that the rings do take damage from water and other elements. And they do not want a crimp ring that will only last for 5 to 20 years. And now they are trying to sell the new pro system that has the expanding rings. Supposedly for the changes is that the new rings will last for a hundred years instead of an iffy 5 to 20 years according to the rep. Well at least thats what i got out of it.
                      Attached Files

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                      • #12
                        Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                        I've installed alot of pex down here in chula vista ca. I would only use the wirsbo expanding ring. For one there the same material , they also allow you to expand the pipe over the fitting thus keeping the original inside diameter. I would stub out in copper, we get repair calls all the time for pex angle stops that have gone bab. Most of the supply houses do not carry the angle stop in inventory.
                        THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

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                        • #13
                          Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                          Wirsbro is nice stuff the tools are pricey but there a nice system. You need to get the expander but I know the suppliers here makes deals to sell more tubing. I got a Cordless set and the hand set up for like 700.00 for both. I was working with a guy who had the hand job and was into it. As soon as he tried the cordless he wanted one.
                          Last edited by JRM638fitter; 07-13-2007, 03:35 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                            I agree wirsbo is the best system. The pipe itself has a 50 year guarantee, besides all the other pros you guys have pointed out
                            West Trail Mechanical Ltd
                            Service. Commitment. Expertise.

                            www.westtrailmechanical.ca

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                            • #15
                              Re: PEX-Cinch Clamps VS Rings

                              I pesonally love Rehau, just because the brass ring slips over the fittind and squashes the pipe between, downside to the Rehau, to many tools and the extra sleeves are expensive and a bit more time consuming

                              downside to wirsbo, if it is 35 degrees outside, you need to heat the ring a bit so you get a good seal, to spead up the process.
                              sigpic

                              Robert

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