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  • #16
    Re: new angle valve?

    Even though I will never install one of those one piece plastic angle stops that he is talking about, I feel that they are a great product. They are great because I get a lot of business replacing them with a quality product. I run into a lot of them in my town. When the homeowners see that they started leaking after only a couple of years, they usually have me replace all of them in the house at once.

    Mark

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: new angle valve?

      I have never tried this product, but have researched it. I would compare it to sharkbites, which I would never use, in any case, let me repeat that, never would I use a shark bit.

      Now, one other problem, I do not like the idea of the flex line not being able to be disconnected, any time the fixture is replaced, the flex is removed, it should be replaced.

      This product is like something I have seen in mobile homes, I don't work on mobile homes anymore because of products like these.

      Brasscraft just came out with a new slip on type angle stop, it is brass, I still wouldn't use it.

      I want the security of metal valves either screwing on or compressing on metal.

      My general liability insurance company feels more comfrortable
      sigpic

      Robert

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: new angle valve?

        Please dont take this the wrong way, but why would I want to warranty out a product that I had little faith in to begin with?

        Does that warranty cover the damage to the $5,000 hardwood floor in the bathroom?? I dont think so.

        I would never consider installing one of these. It just looks like a liability suit waiting to happen.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: new angle valve?

          THM,



          Produce the "Warranty Certificate" that I cannot find on your website. I'm sure all of us would like to see the wording of the exclusions on your product.

          Most brass valves, threaded/sweat/compression have limited lifetime, the limited meaning what might of indirectly caused failure. ie corrosion from hard water, disrepair causing defects.

          10 years is a small fraction to what all the products you're connecting to, offers. Most products hover around the 25 to 30 year window.

          Why is that?

          Don't you trust your product to last more than 10 years?

          How does your product remain effective when it's not even serviceable when pipe distortions or extreme high pressure enters the equation?


          Tough questions, tough answers. Find out on the next montel willams show.
          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: new angle valve?

            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
            THM,

            Most brass valves, threaded/sweat/compression have limited lifetime, the limited meaning what might of indirectly caused failure. ie corrosion from hard water, disrepair causing defects.

            10 years is a small fraction to what all the products you're connecting to, offers. Most products hover around the 25 to 30 year window.

            Tough questions, tough answers. Find out on the next montel willams show.
            BrassCraft warranty....hmm...appears to be one year with a maximum liability of up to the cost of the defective product. With interesting exclusions...for instance must be installed per manufacturer's instruction--yet, they provide no instructions ANYWHERE for installing compression stops on cpvc pipe. See here: http://www.brasscraft.com/PDF/BrassC...Conditions.pdf

            Watts Tubular Warranty...hmm...appears to be one year as well...limited to repair and replacement of defective valve...again, must be installed per manufacturer's instructions, and no instructions for using a compression-stop on cpvc pipe... See here: http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/b...t_warranty.asp

            Dahl Valve...hmm, again, one year parts replacement only...see page A3 here: http://www.dahlvalve.com/DAHL_US_Edition_March_2007.pdf

            The Accor warranty is here--and covers parts and labor for 10 years: http://www.accortechnology.com/flowtitevalves.html

            Who makes the shut-off valves with the limited lifetime warranties??? I'm confused. Please advise.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: new angle valve?

              Wow,


              Took you 20 days of lots of research of your competitions product knowledge to bring such a biased retort. Biased meaning you sell this product, not work with it in your hands, nor do you have to be the responsibility for this as the plumbing contractor on a daily basis like the good plumbers chimed in on this thread which is becoming your sinking titanic. Shame is that your reaching for the last life boat and its got a huge hole in it. Name:  3665a264e36441d824a9490e495a5168.gif
Views: 1
Size:  146 Bytes


              I'm sitting here with a NIBCO valve in my hand that's inscribed LIFETIME REPLACEMENT

              I have angle/straight stops around here that say the same, some old ones and some new ones.


              Here's the gristle of your fine print in your warranty:


              You only give 1 year implied warranty for commercial applications, the ones you spouted off about that so many developers are using.

              10 years for residential but it's on a sliding scale all the way down to say, year 8 maybe and you're offering 2/10's cost reductions to suck the consumer into a second mistake? Don't think so chuck.

              Your product doesn't sell or sit well the majority in my area when it comes to quality product and you'd be hard pressed to benefit......unless of course you can find someone that doesn't know about the complications involving around your product, beforehand.


              What's great is Watts whenever they have a problem with their products, they don't resort to the fine print like you do.....they just give the plumbers replacement of the bad product at no charge, consider it "just good business". I've never had any angle/straight stops defective, but I've had a few PRV's lately that seemed very isolated in particular product, that's it.


              In my 20 + years of plumbing, most if not all angle/straight stops go bad from calcium buildup....hard to turn or leak through the packing. MOST IF NOT COULD BE REBUILT BY THE PLUMBER IF THEY WANTED TO. <<<< I will do this on valves that are close to the wall, soldered. You cannot do that with your product.

              None of it was at any fault to its design......it's what ran through it that makes it fail. "Fail" being termed loosely as it is up to the service tech whether to rebuild or replace to serve both the financial & liability benefit.


              Your product on the other hand is notorious for stumping the DIY'r in trying to fix their own plumbing, the mentality that if one part of your device leaks, it all gotta go. And finally, it's a plastic component that when subjected to UV rays from a window in a bathroom or flourescent lightbulbs on in a public restroom 24/7.

              ^^^ If you think that is BS, better read up on UV and plastic considerations. Yellowing/brittleness is common when sunlight exposure or years of artificial lighting is used. <<< Flourescent bulbs relatively speaking.

              The constant temperature variances of incoming cold back to room temperature numerous times in the course of a 24 hour period makes your product extremely brittle....

              that's why that crimped connection right where the supply line starts on that valve is subject to breaking quite easily.....the supply line length is at a set dimension and we all know that every single damn water supply is not set on a 6 6 measure off the flange.

              So, that means the flexible line is pulled/bent/twisted or looped to make it work.....and that small plastic barb is just begging to snap, especially if the toilet has a slight shimmy to it every time Bob reads the evening newspaper and wants to adjust his body while in stage 2 of his bowel evacuation.

              Your plastic valves are not reslient to calcium buildup. That means at some time either the homeowner or the plumber has to shut that valve down, calcium will hinder/stop the once-easy motion that valve had that you had in your hand selling to anyone wanting to save a buck at the expense of the poor property owner someday.

              That round handle snaps off because of resistance....plastic stems goes as well and warrants the complete assembly useless with the customer in a frantic motion calling a plumber for emergency services.

              I've never heard of a customer snapping off a brass stem on a angle/straight stop without doing something retarded with a wrench....the plastic they use CELERON is pretty damn durable when put under a hard strain.

              I get around on the net so I'm familiar in a great deal of forums where your product is mentioned and everyone is trying to get rid of it.


              Comprende? Attachment


              Don't ship a free box of these to calm the waters either; I can't be bought.
              Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 11-07-2007, 02:18 AM.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: new angle valve?

                Wow! You must be an active Ernie Fletcher supporter to come back with such a personal attack in response to the links provided. It may be the political season in Kentucky, and your frustration is justified--today--but I have no interest in selling you any products. My suggestion to you is to use what you're most comfortable with...my statement was that I know A LOT OF people that are comfortable with something else.

                Your exact statement was that MOST brass valves have a limited lifetime warranty...and I showed you that the MAJOR players (BrassCraft, Watts, Dahl, Accor...) DO NOT have a limited lifetime warranty. You found a minor player (in supply-stops--NIBCO, with a limited lifetime warranty) and now claim that proves your point. I would, respectfully, disagree...are you now going to argue what the meaning of the word MOST is?

                Regarding UV light...I know from experience that the Sterling tubs will discolor when left outside in the sunlight--as will many plastic products. Inside a home...will they discolor? Does UV light go through a glass window? Ordinary window glass blocks over 90% of the light below 300 nm--now add storm windows and double-pane (NOT MUCH UV light is getting into that home now, is there?)...that is why tanning beds are made of plastic, not glass...that is why eyeglasses that are made with plastic lenses require a special protective film on the exterior of the lens to block the UV light.

                Regarding commercial warranties...hmm, what is the warranty that Moen, Delta, Kohler, etc...place on their products when used in commercial applications? Do they stand-behind their products?

                Finally, you mention "Celeron" as a very good high quality plastic..."Celeron" is an Intel processor used to run a computer.

                I believe you meant to say "Celcon"... Celcon is an acetal copolymer developed as a natural UV light stabilized general purpose, medium flow grade. It has been specially formulated as a natural acetal that does not discolor, yet maintains mechanical property integrity in UV light exposure. This is found here... by typing "uv-light and celcon" in google... http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...bassnum=PHCW36

                Incidentally, it didn't take me 20 days to look that up...just like it didn't take me twenty days to find out BrassCraft's warranty by typing "BrassCraft and warranty" into google...

                I believe the above answers your questions regarding UV light on Celcon...by typing http://www.icc-es.org into your computer, you can also see their information about most manufacturers...I wonder if Accor's acetal co-polymer is also Celcon (which you appear to be a big fan of)... http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/BNBC/97-54.pdf Perhaps you can do some extensive research and find this out...hopefully, it won't take 20 days...



                Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                Wow,


                Took you 20 days of lots of research of your competitions product knowledge to bring such a biased retort. Biased meaning you sell this product, not work with it in your hands, nor do you have to be the responsibility for this as the plumbing contractor on a daily basis like the good plumbers chimed in on this thread which is becoming your sinking titanic. Shame is that your reaching for the last life boat and its got a huge hole in it. Name:  3665a264e36441d824a9490e495a5168.gif
Views: 1
Size:  146 Bytes


                I'm sitting here with a NIBCO valve in my hand that's inscribed LIFETIME REPLACEMENT

                I have angle/straight stops around here that say the same, some old ones and some new ones.


                Here's the gristle of your fine print in your warranty:


                You only give 1 year implied warranty for commercial applications, the ones you spouted off about that so many developers are using.

                10 years for residential but it's on a sliding scale all the way down to say, year 8 maybe and you're offering 2/10's cost reductions to suck the consumer into a second mistake? Don't think so chuck.

                Your product doesn't sell or sit well the majority in my area when it comes to quality product and you'd be hard pressed to benefit......unless of course you can find someone that doesn't know about the complications involving around your product, beforehand.


                What's great is Watts whenever they have a problem with their products, they don't resort to the fine print like you do.....they just give the plumbers replacement of the bad product at no charge, consider it "just good business". I've never had any angle/straight stops defective, but I've had a few PRV's lately that seemed very isolated in particular product, that's it.


                In my 20 + years of plumbing, most if not all angle/straight stops go bad from calcium buildup....hard to turn or leak through the packing. MOST IF NOT COULD BE REBUILT BY THE PLUMBER IF THEY WANTED TO. <<<< I will do this on valves that are close to the wall, soldered. You cannot do that with your product.

                None of it was at any fault to its design......it's what ran through it that makes it fail. "Fail" being termed loosely as it is up to the service tech whether to rebuild or replace to serve both the financial & liability benefit.


                Your product on the other hand is notorious for stumping the DIY'r in trying to fix their own plumbing, the mentality that if one part of your device leaks, it all gotta go. And finally, it's a plastic component that when subjected to UV rays from a window in a bathroom or flourescent lightbulbs on in a public restroom 24/7.

                ^^^ If you think that is BS, better read up on UV and plastic considerations. Yellowing/brittleness is common when sunlight exposure or years of artificial lighting is used. <<< Flourescent bulbs relatively speaking.

                The constant temperature variances of incoming cold back to room temperature numerous times in the course of a 24 hour period makes your product extremely brittle....

                that's why that crimped connection right where the supply line starts on that valve is subject to breaking quite easily.....the supply line length is at a set dimension and we all know that every single damn water supply is not set on a 6 6 measure off the flange.

                So, that means the flexible line is pulled/bent/twisted or looped to make it work.....and that small plastic barb is just begging to snap, especially if the toilet has a slight shimmy to it every time Bob reads the evening newspaper and wants to adjust his body while in stage 2 of his bowel evacuation.

                Your plastic valves are not reslient to calcium buildup. That means at some time either the homeowner or the plumber has to shut that valve down, calcium will hinder/stop the once-easy motion that valve had that you had in your hand selling to anyone wanting to save a buck at the expense of the poor property owner someday.

                That round handle snaps off because of resistance....plastic stems goes as well and warrants the complete assembly useless with the customer in a frantic motion calling a plumber for emergency services.

                I've never heard of a customer snapping off a brass stem on a angle/straight stop without doing something retarded with a wrench....the plastic they use CELERON is pretty damn durable when put under a hard strain.

                I get around on the net so I'm familiar in a great deal of forums where your product is mentioned and everyone is trying to get rid of it.


                Comprende? Attachment


                Don't ship a free box of these to calm the waters either; I can't be bought.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Oh man

                  I'm probably going to hell for kicking a kid in a wheelchair on this one!


                  Well THM, I'll give you credit that you know how to swim in a drowning pool. lol!

                  I went here to learn about how significant this company Accor really is since you seem to fashion the grouping of the top 3 to your little one.

                  Of course, you better show up as #1 on the list. But for a product that has such a stupendous reputation to be grouped with the top products, and even have a better mfg. warranty than all of them combined, you'd think the web crawlers

                  like msn/google/yahoo slurp spiders would of obtained your product name. NONE

                  I went here to learn about FlowTite and "file not found" is what the anxious consumer wanting to buy 1000's is going to find.

                  I went here; care to explain why I can't find you? Looks like I found that Accor is trampling on the grounds of trademark infringement if you do a TESS search. shame shame shame!!!

                  I called Barnett's, a HUGE company that sells product to Contractors...

                  your product can't be found.

                  I called Fergusons, your product can't be found

                  I called 5 other supply houses in my area, large ones, your product can't be found.

                  In a glimmer of hope, I found this lone rebel of a supplier that has your product listing on a back end page of their site, out of canada.

                  I don't know if you expect your buying public to search through 26 pages of search engine information to find your dust specs....I doubt it.

                  Home Depot. Lowe's ACE, Do-it Hardwares stores don't sell this product.

                  Wouldn't you think if your product was so great, wouldn't it be littered across the net with suppliers and comments glorifying its use? Say it isn't so sam.

                  And to your reply:

                  I'm a registered independent; good try

                  NIBCO a minor player? Better feel yer raisins again and rethink that

                  This "LOT" of people, did you pay them to use your product, sort of infomerically-ish???

                  I'm glad I met you mr. wordspellchecker; my product catalog was an arm's reach from getting the correct spelling and in the tired time I typed my response, you got me, you win.

                  The point you glide over is that sunlight fades carpets, fades countertops, fades nearly anything plastic when subjected to UV rays and results in the physical properties getting BRITTLE. Sunlight can yellow linoleum in just a small area where the afternoon/evening sun sits for hours. Why do you think PEX has to be brought to supply houses/concealed in hidden fashion until it is installed in homes? UV RAYS Also: houses with windows in the basement>>> can indirectly affect the piping as its exposure causes problems. I didn't make this **** up! This is what is discussed in plumbing forums across the web.

                  So needless to say let's believe for a minute that all your wonderous valves are installed in dark locations only. <<< NOT!!!

                  Plastic is a product that is terrific when it's brand new. Give it years and it gets extremely brittle and breaks. Just the mere fact of incoming cold resting back to room temperature over a number of years makes YOUR product vulnerable to failure.

                  Brass angle/straight stops are resilient to that problem.


                  Okay, I'm saving the best for last.


                  Do you really think it's worth my time to start drudging threads up across the net to show you what the gathering opinions are on your product? I can do that quite easily being a moderator/admin of a few plumbing sites and you'll see what I'm saying about the mistrust people have for your product.

                  Just own up to it FFS!

                  What's even worse? This site gets high ratings in percentile of websites due to its internet traffic and this thread will get caught in the crossfires and logged permanently in databases of search engines.

                  But, I guess the saying "No information is better than bad information" holds true.

                  Time for coffee and cinnamon crumbcakes, I've earned it.Name:  691425b7b66eefb22af5d48e8f18be0c.gif
Views: 1
Size:  4.7 KB
                  Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 11-08-2007, 09:38 PM.
                  Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: new angle valve?

                    Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                    I think your right mark, a couple of other companies make these type of stops, I would never use one!

                    Brasscraft just came out with some new design also, looks like it takes a special notched piece of copper stubbed out. I want to compress or screw my bibbs and stops on, not push them on, no comfort there

                    Heck, I hate compression too, I would rather solder on a MIP, but it isn't cost effective unless your doing a repair job and the ferrell stretched the copper while being removed.
                    I'm with Westcoast here. These gimmick angle stops are trouble.
                    the dog

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: new angle valve?

                      I just replaced two of these, one was leaking from the manufactured compressed end going up to the sink. I decided to replace both at the same time.
                      I was able to easily pull/twist off the first one,
                      The second one I got my dremel to cut it.
                      Here is a another picture of what it looks like, As you can see its the metal ring that holds them on.
                      Hope this helps others

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: new angle valve?

                        Wow You Guys are Brutal ... LOL

                        I Use the SNOT Out of ACCORS .... Falure rate is about 1:500 and then it's very Minor ...(I'm in and out in 15 minutes ...Job Done)

                        When I Install them I leave enough pipe to work with

                        Dave

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: new angle valve?

                          Hi,
                          I'm not an expert by any means, but we had the plastic stops installed under all the sinks and toilets in our townhouse. The ones in the kitchen leaked first, then the one in the upstairs bathroom when we tried to fix the toilet. We just had the rest replaced last week out of fear that they would start leaking sooner than later. We replaced them with Brasscraft valves and I hope they last longer than the plastic ones. The house was bought new so they started failing around 6 years later. Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: new angle valve?

                            I use Brasscraft 1/4 turn angle stops. Great design with little to no failures to my memory in my only 14 years experience. They seem to be designed well.

                            If it's not broke don't fix it.

                            Plastic is good in many situations.

                            However, I will NOT use plastic valves, plastic waste and overflows, plastic pop up assemblies. Brass only for these parts. IMO

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: new angle valve?

                              Hi folks,

                              First off, I should qualify that I work at Dahl so I am understandably biased....

                              I read this thread with great interest and want to get the word out that, as of July 2008, Dahl has introduced a 25 year warranty wherein we will pay up to $50 towards the labor cost of replacing failed product.

                              You can download a copy of our complete warranty here: http://www.dahlvalve.com/download/default.aspx

                              FYI - We buy our brass bar stock & Teflon in the U.S.A. and manufacture our valves in Canada.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: new angle valve?

                                YAH!!!!! Dahl mini ball angle stops (valves) All Brass. Sweat on and forget it...the best. $4.98 each at Home Depot.

                                I see your factory on the south side of the Queen Elizabeth Way in Oakville, on the way into Toronto.

                                Since you have made a post Dahlvalveman, should we be be sweating the valves in OPEN or CLOSED position??? (I have been sweating them in OPEN position without a problem).
                                Thanks,

                                Comment

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