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  • Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

    Was the downfall of the profession being limited to only licensed hands.


    A comment was thrown here or somewhere in regards to cast iron/poured joints being a thing of the past being a good thing.


    I strongly disagree as I feel that the skills that took to make that poured joint eliminated the hands today that whip together a glue joint on a water or drain line.

    Simplicity breeds ignorance in every profession. Remember that when dealing with cast iron and poured joints, all that heavy labor relied on knowing your centers, the angle of your fittings and working with non-movable sizes at times. A poured joint takes multiple steps....it's not rocket science either though but you take great care so that when you do a test on it, it better hold. Otherwise you created major double work.

    If cast iron was the norm in plumbing around big box stores....I really don't think there would be rental tools there for ladles, lead and the tools to make a proper lead joint. No large 3 pack sales on oakum either.

    As I repeat,


    Plastic and it's introduction into to this profession makes the average dummy more easily able to connect the dots with this product as it takes less skill; that's a fact.

    Would I want to go back in that day and era, loading up enough cast iron to blow the tires off the rims of my truck? nope

    Would I want to pour horizontal joints all day long, getting possibly burned half the time with the lead? nope

    Would I want to thread an entire house full of galvanized pipe, up through a 2 story with numerous bathrooms, notching the top of floors to lay it in before the concrete is set 3" thick on the wood joists, marble slab for the toilet?; nope

    But I certainly appreciate the knowledge and skill level that era of plumbing earns and holds to this day.

    We as plumber's in this profession today don't know how easy we got it.

    I started in plumbing when cell phones didn't even exist. Having a pager made you "upmost important" in that day and era.

    Plastic was gaining strong popularity and I got in right when 1st roughs underground were done in plastic, the older generation thinking plastic underground was insane.

    Now we have electronic this push together that, here let's crimp this and run!


    As long as it's easy to do and doesn't take much brainpower, the trade will succumb to hands of lesser knowledge attempting to do what once was held elite for the licensed professional plumber.

    Take this thread for what it's worth. I just wanted to reply to that statement that was made that I cannot find anywhere and wanted to make sure I mentioned this, whether I stand alone in my thinking or others feel the gratitude to our fellow plumbers that worked twice as hard as we do to accomplish so much in this fine trade.
    Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 12-06-2007, 02:39 AM.
    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

  • #2
    Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

    I had to laugh reading your post as I have blown out more than one tire over loading my rough-in truck with cast iron.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

      Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
      They are for handymen and home owners Big Ben. There is nothing permanent about a push on fitting.

      Sorry, the market will always come up with new ideas to make our jobs easier, but really what they are doing is weakening the industry.

      Nothing is better then 2 pipes soldered or threaded toghether.

      Heck, if it was up to me, I would love to go back to lead and oakum. It =is a proven method.
      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
      Lead and oakum......Give me a break.

      I've got to hear this.

      Chicks must dig you.
      Originally posted by yasudaplumbing View Post
      I tell you what guys.........I still use lead and oakum.
      Every so often I bust out my ladle, yarning & packing irons, and joint runner previously soaked in oil.
      When ever I do a sewer lateral tie in on an older lot, I just shove in my 4" PVC-DWV and caulk joint that baby in there.
      I know there is Ty-seal, but in a 5 foot deep trench where a machine is gonna be dumping in the back fill, there is no way my pipe is gonna pull out.
      I also use it for a lot for older existing kitchen/laundry situations where the 1 1/2" galvanized pipe has rusted. I wiggle the pipe out of the 2" CI bell, use my hammer to pry out the old leak & oakum, shove in my 2" PVC-DWV, repack the oakum and melt the old lead.

      In my 20 years of new construction and repairs, I have never used Ty-Seal. But you know what they say.......Never say "Never".

      The bummer part is.......Chicks still don't dig me.....must be my dirty finger nails.


      Tracy
      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
      I haven't had to caulk a horizontal joint for twenty years.I've let all my ropes and irons go.Sure glad I have Rick,my luck I'll need one next week
      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
      lead wool is the trick for horizontal. vertical i still pour.

      actually i still carry a ladel and lead and oakum in the truck along with a few choice irons

      rick.
      I think these are the quotes you were referring to. It was in the thread I had started about sharkbite fittings titled "1/2" Brass Push-On Caps for Copper Pipe?"

      I do agree with what you just said, those plumbers back in a day busted there a$$es and required some skills to plumb a house. A lot more work for less pay.

      Now, it's a lot less work for more pay. Anybody can glue a joint, even Hacks.

      Tracy
      Last edited by yasudaplumbing; 12-06-2007, 03:40 AM.
      sigpic.................I Love My Toto Bidet :twofinger2: :twofinger:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

        I dont know if I'm gonna give the entire group of my plumbing forefathers too huge of a bow cause they did not have technology.I've seen SOME,not as much,thrown together pipe and hacked wood.Also there are some areas in the trade where skill is needed.You won't find it mass housing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

          Originally posted by yasudaplumbing View Post
          Now, it's a lot less work for more pay. Anybody can glue a joint, even Hacks.

          Tracy
          Oh! Oh! I can glue joints together!! And they don't even leak afterward!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

            There has all ways been Hacks and will always be Hacks, (some licenced and some not),

            Regardless of the tools the technology or the trade, There will be that group that will do there best and do correctly, and those who don't give a #$*&, and that is all there is to it.

            It has nothing to do with the skills involved, or the tools, or the materials used, or even the trade it is in.
            It is people and how they function, and there care and concern to the job, and to others, and if they strive to do the best or jsut what they can get by with.
            (probly a lot is a reflection of how they view them selves).

            Some seek the to be the cream in life and some are content to settle to the bottom and be dregs on the bottom.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for the responses

              Think of a drain replacement in cast iron, two fixed positions.


              Now think of "how can I replace that cast iron within those two fixed positions without these neat rubber connections?"

              How about that 2" galvanized shower drain that's 13' from the main stack, 4 turns of direction and have to tuck it up high for height clearance as it goes across the basement ceiling. Every section, hand threaded 2" pipe. You're helper cut the section too short? Oh boy, that just cost you big because now you have to grab another length of pipe.

              The margins were probably just as thin as they are now in new construction.


              How did they cut cast-iron back in the day? Not with a diamond blade, not with a snap cutter......


              hammer and chisel, carefully. Minimum of probably 5 minutes to get completely around the pipe and methodical at best.


              Cast iron roll top tubs,

              heavy wall hung lavs

              toilets with 5-7 gallon tanks

              Concrete laundry tubs

              Outside drainage piping consisting of vitrified clay laid out in sections. Concrete in the sections cut whatever was needed. No throwing a bundle of 20 footers on the truck and throwing them down in the ditch....glue a few joints while the backhoe is running. No way.


              A plumber that I worked for free in my area years ago, couldn't even rebuild his own Delta 2 handle faucet.

              He said that from all the years of working with cast-iron and caulking joints....constant repetitive motions made his hands numb and the inability to raise his arms. That was terrible working for that guy knowing he spent his whole life doing what he loved and now he can't fix his own plumbing as a direct result?

              I've seen some monstrocities inside walls of pipes and fittings that I knew had hours involved in thier application. And I wipe it all out with a quick few cuts of a sawzall,

              rework it all with copper in a matter of minutes. Some of you do it in plastic which takes even less time. The threading machine never gets set up for the process.

              Next time you cut out a section of cast-iron, especially that heavy grade that was used in schools, and it takes all your might to safely drop it to the ground without your rhoids flaring....

              envision making a career out of the durham system and lead pours. No battery operated drills, no lasers, no electrical power tools, no hammer drills. Get into these real old homes from 50's and you'll see that most of those notches in joists were done by hand saws. Hand cranked drill bits were the norm for water line penetrations. I have a whole lot of respect for the prior generations in my profession as you can tell. I got it easy.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                Well Said Dunbar

                If you had to work at installing something like cast iron and lead/ oakum, half of these "Plumbers" wouldn't be plumbers, it takes to much work and half of them don't have the brains, or won't use them because it's "to hard"

                Because of things like sharkbites, john guess, rubber comby's and santees, the market is going to hell in a hand basket.

                It will continue to go downhill and lose respect if we who are currently in the trade don't stop supporting it.

                I wanted to have a career where my son would love to take my place, by the time I have a son and he is old enough to make his own choices, the market will be at it's lowest in my life time. Nothing to respect.

                Sharkbite is just a part of an overall problem, abs, pvc, it is all in there, luckily with abs/pvc you still need to have some brains to install it, sharbites, you need no brains at all, trust me, when there is copper pipe, there is always a way to solder the fitting properly and do a complete job.
                sigpic

                Robert

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                • #9
                  Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                  I have to chuckle when I read this post. When I started my apprenticeship in 1950 I heard the same song, different lyrics. Then it was copper instead of galvanized, plywood instead of shiplap or roof boards, sheetrock instead of "genuine lath and plaster, "no more lead pipe and wiped joints--the list goes on. Twenty or so years from now you will still hear the melody but it is anybody's guess as to the lyrics. Most people call it progress and yes, sometimes we long for the good old days, but if you are a determined tradesman, you check out the new and pick out what you feel will do the best job and go for it. I remember an old carpenter claiming that the skillsaw was going to put us all out of work. Yet today we post about never using a hand saw or threading a pipe by hand etc. It's perpetual.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                    Dunbar,Now You're starting to scare Me. 46 years ago, as a young carpenter I owned a RIP SAW,and used it daily! Does this mean I have to go back there??
                    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                      I think you guys agree with my thoughts on new residential construction, GC 's and developers seem mainly concerned with profit margins...not all, but definitely the majority.
                      I was working for shops installing what I call "garden hose" PEX, and also CPVC.
                      Given a choice of plastics on potable, I opt away from PEX because of the mechanical nature of the fittings...reminescent of PB crimps, though it was the actual fittings on PB that gave, not the crimps..I still don't feel warm n' fuzzy about 'em, sharkbite & propress I won't even get into.
                      Local supplier is trying to get me to try Nibco's version of propress..I'm still not interrested. Not to mention the tools cost more than some threading machines.
                      I asked an old boss why he used that stuff, he told me straight out he bids two ways on each job..with copper & with plastic and almost never gets jobs in copper.
                      Told me he'd lose his business if he bid copper only.
                      I still pack and pour joints on the older residential work in the City area any time there's no room to squeeze a no-hub clamp...it's far from obsolete here.
                      We can point fingers at eachother and say it's the other guys fault for using it, or we can point at those who allow these products to be approved.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                        Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                        Couldn't the same thing be said about drywall, power tools, quickrete and all other tools used by DIY and professionals alike? I would venture that running galvanzied pipe for water is not for a DIY, to many tools, a lot of math, etc. But does that make galvanized pipe the perfect water line? Of course not. Let's not confuse installation difficulty with material longevity. As long as you're a reputable plumber that does quality work, you will never be out of a job. As long as we stand behind our work, no matter how it's done, is what matters.
                        Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
                        I have to chuckle when I read this post. When I started my apprenticeship in 1950 I heard the same song, different lyrics. Then it was copper instead of galvanized, plywood instead of shiplap or roof boards, sheetrock instead of "genuine lath and plaster, "no more lead pipe and wiped joints--the list goes on. Twenty or so years from now you will still hear the melody but it is anybody's guess as to the lyrics. Most people call it progress and yes, sometimes we long for the good old days, but if you are a determined tradesman, you check out the new and pick out what you feel will do the best job and go for it. I remember an old carpenter claiming that the skillsaw was going to put us all out of work. Yet today we post about never using a hand saw or threading a pipe by hand etc. It's perpetual.
                        I'm right there with you and agree 100%. In comparision to the rest of you, my plumbing experience is relatively short at 9 years. I can't remember the last properly installed pvc joint that failed for no reason. I don't think I ever got a service call on pvc since I started working in this area 2 years ago. I've seen countless failed cast iron joints, fittings, and pipe due to corrosion. I'll stick to PVC.

                        Anyone seen the "woodwright shop" with Roy Underhill? He does woodworking the old fashioned way-no power tools at all. What about "the new yankee workshop" with Norm Abrams? It's nothing but power tools. Which do you think is faster? Is there a difference in quality? None that I can tell. Plumbing is no different.
                        Buy cheap, buy twice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                          Anyone seen the "woodwright shop" with Roy Underhill? He does woodworking the old fashioned way-no power tools at all. What about "the new Yankee workshop" with Norm Abrams? It's nothing but power tools. Which do you think is faster? Is there a difference in quality? None that I can tell. Plumbing is no different.
                          I think the power tool method is faster in one way, but the process is entirely different as well,

                          I think there is a great difference in quality, do you think a MDF or particle board dresser will show up on a "antiques road show" in 150 years in the future,

                          how long did that new dinning room chair last, or that dresser you bought for the kids,

                          OH do you still have that old stucky rocker you grand father had, will you still have that lazy boy chair to hand down to your children,

                          Do you think that glue lams and wafer board will, still be standing in a few hundred years.

                          it is not so much the use of power tools, as most power tools can are will do a better job than one can do by hand, the problem is do to doing something fast, you usually loose the other factors to do it fast and with less skill. such as a but joint instead of a mortise and tendon, joint,

                          also there is the "quality of materials" cast iron and lead are two fairly permanent things, rubber is not a 100 year material, the longest I have had a tire last is about 50 years, and that of course was a 1940'S made tire with real rubber, the current tires and most rubber items are, not lasting 10 years now.
                          yes I know that they can make good rubber and good long lasting plastics, but are they, will it stand up time, rodents, and oxidation.

                          are the Cars of today be able to even be restored like the first cars that were built, will I be able to drive a modern new truck for 50+ years like I been doing with my 1950 trucks. I doubt it. I am not saying that a "new truck" will not go the miles but I do not think it will go the time.

                          I have two windmills, the one has been in the wind since 1934, and the other is late 30's early 40's manufacture, do you think a modern designed windmill will last in the weather for 73+ years, and be nearly as good as the day it was put in by my uncle when it was new,
                          (granted if I buy a new manufacture of the old design and yes they have lightened it some from the original, is $4300 and the tower is $3500, and that is not the pipe or the sucker rod, or well, but your buying a tool that will last 100 years if properly maintained, and not hit by a tornado, (oil added or changed, once a year, basically),

                          first of all quality costs, it is the difference of a quality custom home and that track house, the difference of granite counter tops and Formica, or plaster and dry wall, a marble floor or a vinyl tile one, or a true post and beam and trusses, (I am guessing the "steel sheeted pole barns" will not last as long as the old oak post and beam barns of yesteryear.

                          I think there is a difference, but a lot of it is if the materials will hold up in the long run, it is appearing that basically the plastic DWV is holding up, and is starting to have a true track record, so far the plastic water lines have not fair ed as well, will the new generations be better, than the first ones, do not know only time will tell.

                          just as in the past there was good products, and there were poor products, and if the manufactures use there science and make good products and ones that will stand the test of time, not a problem, but jsut as some foundries made shodie and porous cast iron, and non centered hole in it, there were ones who made the high quality CI lines, but there were the orangeburg pipe that is still causing many many people a headache and money,

                          some times the product is poor and the design of the product is poor, whether it is fast or slow on the install time, some products are improving with science and modern materials, but not all,

                          getting back to Roy and Norm a guy properly trained and versed in hand tools can do an amazing fast job, but more than likely a person that has power tools can do a fast and accurate job as well, some times with out the skill, as the tool will provide the skill, or a substitute for the skill, (no, I am not saying Norm is not skilled but, give a advanced beginner wood worker Norms tools and more than likely they can build the same things Norm can,
                          do the same with Roy, and I doubt if they can duplicate Roy's skills,

                          It is jsut like my son and I were building a wall a few years ago, I gave him the nailer and took out the old framing hammer, and he started on one of the wall and I the other, and I nailed my end of the wall up before he got his done, He had the power tool, I have seen roofers that could hand nail shingles on faster than one could get the air nailer drug across the roof alone nail, but a nearly unskilled roofer or framer can nail or may be even out nail a experienced one by hand. that is the joy of power tools the leaning curve is shortened and productivity goes up,

                          I bet some of the old plumbers could nearly lay out and install the old pipe some times nearly as fast as some of the lesser skilled working plastic of to day,

                          quality does not need to suffer but many times I do believe it does in the for the economics of the system, some times the materials are of a lesser quality and some times the methods are lesser, I guess the true test will be time.

                          It is kind of like discussing automobiles the quality of the engines have improved greatly, at one time 100,000 between over hauls was considered good, now a person with some maintenance should be able to drive 200 to 300 on many the motors out there to day, Transmissions are less in quality IMO, but the bodies of the cars of to day will not last hardly 10 years, with out some major problems it seems, run a modern car off the road, and it is nearly totaled but run a 1970 or pre model off and more than likely drive it back up and the road way and go, possibly an alignments was the most needed if that.

                          I do have a hard time believing that a house built to day will desired in 100+ years or have a charm as the old victorian houses of to day, or many of the old homes in the older parts of towns, no I am not saying that all old houses are great or desired, but many are,

                          There seems to be some mental gaps, so many times Old is equated with bad or not good,
                          where in most countries and cultures old is honored and even Revered, here we have a stadium or arena that is 35 years old and the team wins a play off and they need a new stadium or arena to play in, as if that is going to help them win the next season, sure has not helped the Broncos, any, LOL

                          YOU see many many times some one come in and post how do I tear out my old CI, and replace with plastic, or my house is 20 years old I want new wiring in the walls. granted there are times when it is warranted, but many times it is that is old, I need new.

                          how many trade off there cars or trucks because there "old" not that there not doing there job?

                          one one thread some one asked about true professional tools, are any made any more, and in another post many said they still had there original power tools or hand tools, and on another post some posted the web home pages of rigid, at one time there web page motto was "tools for life", and on the plumbing side of things it is basically a true statement.
                          I still have my dads pipe wrenches and for the most part as good as the day they were bought,
                          but very few companies make tools or any thing for life, any more, most are made to use and throw away, either by not keeping repair parts for it or jsut making crappy stuff to begin with. It appears that many things are designed with a planed obsolesce, either by the choice of materials, or what ever, (cars, that use plastics that are breaking down in about 10 years, the door handles break, the knobs fall off the head liners sag, the bushings in the drive train deterate and steering and the list goes on).

                          It is not that plastic can not be quality but if the company that is manufacturing it is making a quality product that is the best they can make it, and will it stand the test of time, and only time will really tell.
                          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                          attributed to Samuel Johnson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                            Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                            Well Said Dunbar

                            If you had to work at installing something like cast iron and lead/ oakum, half of these "Plumbers" wouldn't be plumbers, it takes to much work and half of them don't have the brains, or won't use them because it's "to hard"

                            Because of things like sharkbites, john guess, rubber comby's and santees, the market is going to hell in a hand basket.

                            It will continue to go downhill and lose respect if we who are currently in the trade don't stop supporting it.

                            I wanted to have a career where my son would love to take my place, by the time I have a son and he is old enough to make his own choices, the market will be at it's lowest in my life time. Nothing to respect.

                            Sharkbite is just a part of an overall problem, abs, pvc, it is all in there, luckily with abs/pvc you still need to have some brains to install it, sharbites, you need no brains at all, trust me, when there is copper pipe, there is always a way to solder the fitting properly and do a complete job.

                            Agreed and this is the point I'm trying to hammer out.

                            I'm just explaining "how things were" to the way they are today, BIG difference.

                            People can bring all their personal experiences to the table on this subject but I'm speaking at the points of what made plumbing.....something the homeowner/remodeler/handyman didn't deal with as much as they do today.

                            That's why a handyman would look at you cross-eyed about pouring a lead joint.

                            If you watch and see what most the untrained, unlicensed individuals put in their hands, it's usually plastic. Push-fit, clamp-down, rubber booted, glued, crimped, fast and easy.

                            Do most realize that even though we bark, bad-mouth cast-iron and galvanized that the product lasted years, most over 30.

                            PEX has been brought to the market now and just in its beginning stages it has lawsuits, defective crimp rings, defective fittings, mix-matching of other products, products being discontinued, DENIAL of liability.

                            There's a thread on another site regarding Wirsbo piping where the mfg. of the pipe is stating no direct OR indirect lighting on this piping whether uninstalled or after installation from windows in basements or other types of applications where sunlight is involved. ????

                            And, clean hands. Clean hands for a plumber? No oily residue whatsoever or the it causes problems with the crimps. 1/32" margins? Please....I see this as tragedy unfolding for the masses.

                            History proves that more and more unlicensed, untrained hands have entered this profession of plumbing since the introduction of plastic piping and components. << This is the reason for my starting of this discussion.

                            By no means am I stating that history return to it's beginnings, I'm saying that the plumbing field has been invaded by the generation of those who feel faster, quicker and cheaper is the mindset to follow.

                            I gain nothing from the above if I'm exposing myself to the liability. It sucks when I have to switch an angle or straight stop on CPVC and pray, PRAY that I have enough stability in my hands with two wrenches not to accidentally jerk and snap the stubout back into a tee or 90. The piping is brittle as it ages.

                            CPVC is in my market but the majority of the homes in my area are still copper. Until water quality issues came into play on regional levels, it seemed to work quite well. PEX is gaining momentum in lower KY and moving upwards. Soon enough I'll have to be the one asking for piping type when someone asks for a repair. I'm heading into year 6 under my company name and there's not one glued water connection with my name on it, not one crimped connection that could ever blow off, rupture. I'm exercising extreme caution to the benefit of my customers, my profession, my livelihood.

                            Everyone can play in the sandbox while I play on the swingset. Don't complain when one of us dirtier at the end of the day than the other.
                            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                            • #15
                              Re: Introduction to Plastic in the Profession of Plumbing

                              Originally posted by BHD View Post
                              seems, run a modern car off the road, and it is nearly totaled but run a 1970 or pre model off and more than likely drive it back up and the road way and go, possibly an alignments was the most needed if that.
                              I know I'm picking out a mostly irrelevant part of this post... but don't misconceive this fact for a lack of quality. The reason new cars end up totalled in crashes old ones could be patched back together from is that new cars are designed to absorb these impacts. So while the older car may have been fixable, that car's driver would not have been while the driver of the totalled new car might walk away with just a few scratches.

                              Ok... back to plumbing quality now...

                              I think that pride of workmanship has gone out the window with the latest generations as well. When that is combines with shoddy cheap materials, nothing good can come of it.

                              I'll bet this is more a product of the big cities though and that plumbers and other tradesmen in smaller markets don't likely suffer these deficiencies quite the same.

                              The problem is that when there's plenty of work to be had building new homes and your goal is to get it done as quickly as you can and move on to the next one, proper training and pride of workmanship becomes secondary. The homeowner is never going to know who did it and won't likely find any issues until a few years down the road when the warranty is up anyway.

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