Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

    Plumbers all,

    I have a home built in the 1970's in SC where thin wall copper was all the rage at the time. I've replaced several horizontal sections with new copper, and every couple of months, a new set of leaks crops up. What I'm thinking about doing is cutting out all the horizontal copper lines (no problems experienced in the vertical lines) and transitioning to CPVC. I've seen two types of transition systems; compression, and sweated copper male to copper female tipped with male CPVC fitting. The compression fitting looks a heck of a lot easier, but I'm not sold on quitting the tried and true sweated fitting solution. What do y'all think?

    If the answer is cut out the horizontal copper and sweat in new copper, I'm OK with that -- just need your opinion on new copper pipes vs CPVC on a city treated water system. Do the home stores (HD) sell the thin wall stuff, or is the industry standard a thicker wall pipe that won't degrade in 30 years on city treated water.

    Sorry about the long question, but I only want to do this one more time.

    Respectfully,

    Ron

  • #2
    Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

    Originally posted by RWalrath View Post
    Plumbers all,

    I have a home built in the 1970's in SC where thin wall copper was all the rage at the time. I've replaced several horizontal sections with new copper, and every couple of months, a new set of leaks crops up. What I'm thinking about doing is cutting out all the horizontal copper lines (no problems experienced in the vertical lines) and transitioning to CPVC. I've seen two types of transition systems; compression, and sweated copper male to copper female tipped with male CPVC fitting. The compression fitting looks a heck of a lot easier, but I'm not sold on quitting the tried and true sweated fitting solution. What do y'all think?

    If the answer is cut out the horizontal copper and sweat in new copper, I'm OK with that -- just need your opinion on new copper pipes vs CPVC on a city treated water system. Do the home stores (HD) sell the thin wall stuff, or is the industry standard a thicker wall pipe that won't degrade in 30 years on city treated water.

    Sorry about the long question, but I only want to do this one more time.

    Respectfully,

    Ron
    I think you would be refering to thin wall stuff as type M copper, and type L copper is much better as it is a thicker wall.

    I am a bit old fashioned and believe that type L copper and reamed fittings, installed properly will last you a long time, as long as it is installed correctly, strapped properly and soldered correctly.

    I would never us cpvc for my house potable water, if you want to do other then cpvc, I would go with either Rahau or Wirsbo water pex.

    Rehau is the best on the market, my opinion, it would be like installing l quality copper, and Wirsbo is the second, rehau has an excellent interlocking fitting design.
    sigpic

    Robert

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

      I'm 100% in agreement with Robert BUT my parents lives in Augusta and is having the exact same problem you do. He contacted 5 or 6 plumbers and all wanted to use cpvc or pex. They said the water in the Augusta area eats copper up too quickly. Might be the same for you.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

        There are a number of good CPVC and PEX documents here:

        http://www.ppfahome.org/publications.html

        I'd check the thickness of the other copper tubes before replacing half the system, then having to go back in in a few years. There are places where water is just corrosive.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

          Robert already knows this...
          Copper is my first choice.
          Given a choice of plastics for high pressure potable, I take CPVC over PEX.
          I've worked an area in my state where the manganese content in the ground water is so high that the life expectancy on copper is 20 years, give or take a few.
          At one point I worked for a company (cheapy, production line rental properties) that used nothing but CPVC.
          When I first started with them I was almost in an uproar..."Thats rediculous...you mean to tell me this stuff will still be there in ten years?!?".
          The answer I got was that they'd already been using it for over ten years in other states, that it has been around for about 40 years in limited area's in the U.S. and has slowly gained momentum with a proven track record.
          Do I agree?
          I haven't been plumbing for 40 years, so I can't say first hand.
          I have used Wirsbo PEX expansion fittings extensively...first on baseboard heat, but then on potable when our code approved it while working for other shops.
          I found it deceptively inflexable...tends to kink in places you hadn't figured on using fittings...it also becomes very soft when hot water passes through it (specifically baseboard heat) and the fittings have constricted diameters meaning you may have to compensate by oversizing....then there's the rumor of rodent gnawing.
          Then there are the crimps...all I can say is PB....I think I'll give it ten years or so before I trust those things inside a ceiling.
          CPVC is rumored to become brittle after many years, rumored to also have an aftertaste.
          I haven't noticed any aftertaste, nor have the limited customers I've used it with, as for the brittle part...I'll have to wait.
          If the choice were mine, all plumbing would be copper or cast iron.
          In my state, an alarming percentage of new residential construction is going up with PEX.
          Those shop owners would tell you the same thing....they'd rather use copper, but developers and GC's want the lowest prices so they make a good profit...pretty damn scary if you ask me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
            Robert already knows this...
            Copper is my first choice.
            Given a choice of plastics for high pressure potable, I take CPVC over PEX.
            I've worked an area in my state where the manganese content in the ground water is so high that the life expectancy on copper is 20 years, give or take a few.
            At one point I worked for a company (cheapy, production line rental properties) that used nothing but CPVC.
            When I first started with them I was almost in an uproar..."Thats rediculous...you mean to tell me this stuff will still be there in ten years?!?".
            The answer I got was that they'd already been using it for over ten years in other states, that it has been around for about 40 years in limited area's in the U.S. and has slowly gained momentum with a proven track record.
            Do I agree?
            I haven't been plumbing for 40 years, so I can't say first hand.
            I have used Wirsbo PEX expansion fittings extensively...first on baseboard heat, but then on potable when our code approved it while working for other shops.
            I found it deceptively inflexable...tends to kink in places you hadn't figured on using fittings...it also becomes very soft when hot water passes through it (specifically baseboard heat) and the fittings have constricted diameters meaning you may have to compensate by oversizing....then there's the rumor of rodent gnawing.
            Then there are the crimps...all I can say is PB....I think I'll give it ten years or so before I trust those things inside a ceiling.
            CPVC is rumored to become brittle after many years, rumored to also have an aftertaste.
            I haven't noticed any aftertaste, nor have the limited customers I've used it with, as for the brittle part...I'll have to wait.
            If the choice were mine, all plumbing would be copper or cast iron.
            In my state, an alarming percentage of new residential construction is going up with PEX.
            Those shop owners would tell you the same thing....they'd rather use copper, but developers and GC's want the lowest prices so they make a good profit...pretty damn scary if you ask me.

            Many valid points Mark.

            I appreciate your open mind and thanks for opening mine on the cpvc subject.

            Just like Tankless, it all depends on the installation requirements and the contractor has to look at all the variables. Depends on the situation.

            Pro's and Con's.


            I still love copper though
            sigpic

            Robert

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

              Reading through this thread I am wondering why Stainless tubing has never been used or for that matter how it would hold up in comparison to copper and other materials for water service.

              SS does not appear in the table of approved materials for water distribution service in our code (NSPC, Table 3.4, Materials for Potable Water), but 304 and 316 SS are listed for use in DWV piping systems in Table 3.5

              SS is OK'd for use in so many other areas like fixtures such as sinks, toilets, etc. It's used in many appliances too like coffee pots, refrigerators, dishwashers, and more; and in valves, backflow preventors, water heater tank linings, etc. But not approved for piping use (here anyway) from what I see.

              So I am wondering how all of you feel about the SS tube with some type of mechanical or soldered joint (yes, it is possible to solder SS, but not cheap) for water service. Is the price of copper getting high enough that SS might become an alternative to copper soon?
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

                stainless can use a press fit connection. similar to pro press.

                stainless is used in process piping. and i'm pretty sure it's approved for potable water distribution here. not sure about underground use.

                mark, answers please

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  stainless can use a press fit connection. similar to pro press.

                  stainless is used in process piping. and i'm pretty sure it's approved for potable water distribution here. not sure about underground use.

                  mark, answers please

                  rick.
                  Yup, I am aware of its use in process piping for food processing and other uses. Let's see what our "local authority" has to say when he chimes in.

                  Mark, you're up
                  ---------------
                  Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                  ---------------
                  “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                  ---------
                  "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                  ---------
                  sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

                    Well while Mark is waiting for his computer to boot up...

                    I have used process stainless water piping in a lab for the Secret Service. This is where they test for counterfeit money $$$ They supplied all materials but it had victaulic type fittings

                    The World Bank Building had us change the underground sewer from 6" round to 3"x 10" oval stainless. Each joint was welded and certified by an engineer watching on site. They had to bomb proof every access to the building. They figured someone could send a remote controlled machine inside and deliver Anthrax throughout the building.

                    I believe any Federal Government Agency can supercede any and all building codes they want.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

                      "I believe any Federal Government Agency can supersede any and all building codes they want."

                      PC, I understand that to be the case also. In fact that is one reason that so many military facilities and other government run agencies like nuclear and chemical weapons research facilities are on the SuperFund list for clean-up.

                      Don't forget that the funding to clean up their mess comes out of your pocket twice (in part). First, it was included in the budget estimate when they went for their initial funding, but it never happened (the clean up that is). And the second time is when you get dinged for underwriting the SuperFund cleanup costs.
                      ---------------
                      Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                      ---------------
                      “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                      ---------
                      "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                      ---------
                      sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Need Advice on copper to CPVC transition

                        316 Stainless steel is, bar none, the best material there is for potable oxygen righ water.
                        It's also insanely expensive.
                        I got curious last year at one point and priced some...if memory serves it was well over $100 for a 10' length of 1/2".
                        I imagine it can be braised, or there are approved mechanical connections for it, but at those rates it would only be for very high end use.
                        I would also imagine you'd not have to repipe your home any time in the course of your lifespan.
                        I too await Marks input.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X