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water heater with recirc retrofit

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  • #16
    Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

    i would not install a ring/ spring loaded check valve on the inlet side of this small pump. i would install it on the outlet side. plus those isolation stops on the flange unions are a joke. after a couple of months they freeze up.



    arron what happened to your unions on the inlet/ outlet of the heater?

    also a dielectric or brass nipple would be a wise choice. even if those are dielectric nipples. also a strap on the expansion tank would be nice.

    rick.
    I understand the union type integrals freezing up.Years ago when I was first putting in the pumps I was given the flange connections to use.Maybe because I was a rookie,maybe I misaligned the flanges or even used pipe dope.Anywho,I was getting leaks every so often.I haven't used em since and most of the pumps I see installed are union type in homes.Every once in a while I'll see the flange install.Do they make union-X-3/4fip without the stops.What was I doing wrong with the flanges,maybe I'll go back to using them.

    Ahh,maybe not,flanges are going to take up even more room inside the tankless unit on an exterior installation.

    Just remembered they make a 3/4 union-X-compression.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
      adam, i need to watch the movie and eat some pie. hurry up

      rick.
      OH-HO-HO.

      I'm not going to say it here.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

        Originally posted by Aaron91 View Post
        I agree to dis-agree.

        This is what your nice looking job should of looked like.


        Hey Robert, take a LOOK at those solder joints.

        The only thing I wish I did different on this water heater was to leave more room for the next guy to tie the new heater in years down the line.
        Soldering does look very clean. I don't trust dielectric nipples anymore after seeing corrosion on them. I go with brass nipples. If that is a 5 gal expansion tank, it weighs around 50 lbs. That's a lot of weight on a tee. It being 6" off the top has nothing to do with it. Food for thought fo next time; nothing wrong with your vent but think how much more professional it would have looked if that elbow was new? The $5 you saved your boss at the expense of your craftsmanship isn't worth it. Looks good otherwise Aaron and this is nitpicky stuff but what will seperate you from everyone else.

        Robert, looks good, some code differences, but looks good. I didn't see the "west coast plumbing and sewer" ad on the heater though. Don't forget about those.
        Buy cheap, buy twice.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

          Originally posted by Aaron91 View Post
          I agree to dis-agree.

          This is what your nice looking job should of looked like.


          Hey Robert, take a LOOK at those solder joints.

          The only thing I wish I did different on this water heater was to leave more room for the next guy to tie the new heater in years down the line.
          In time you'll notice how frequently those dielectric nipples fail when used directly with copper, I use brass right off the nipples, a little more expensive but it's my name on it.
          Hopefully you knew to solder the adapters before tightening onto the nipples.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
            Hopefully you knew to solder the adapters before tightening onto the nipples.
            Why would you do that? Just solder everything up in one shot. When you heat the fpt adapter it expands the fitting slightly so you can actually tighten it more. When the adapter cools, it contracts resulting on it being tighter on the nipple. Makes for a tighter fit.
















            I couldn't even type this with a straight face.
            Buy cheap, buy twice.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

              True, but remember that there's a bladder inside an expansion tank which doesn't allow it *normally* hold 5 gallons, well not unless the bladder goes bad years down the line.

              I didn't know what I was getting into with the job. I didn't look at it, or estimate it. I don't stock smoke pipe fittings on my truck. If the boss wants his jobs to look like that, it's his choice, there's nothing much I can do about it.

              Yes Duck I know better than to sweat the female adapters while on the heater. It can melt the dip tube, it's not my first day.
              Proud To Be Union!!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                Aaron,
                You should always try and install expansion tanks so that they are vertical with the tank hanging below it's connection threads (so that the snifter/air valve is on the bottom), and supported so that when you first fire it up, you can displace the air in the expansion tank with water as the air will escape upwards. That explansion tank you installed horizontally has an air pocket in it that will never be able to leave effectively reducing it's performance. If it isn't lined or the lining fails, the air pocket will eat away at the expansion tank causing it to fail prematurely. It's also a good practice if the budget allows for serviceability (I like to think of the service guy) to install a valve so you can isolate the expansion tank, and even a drain down between the shut off valve and the expansion tank so you can drain off the pressure and then remove it and replace it.


                As for the original installation pictures from West Coast Plumber - can you enlighten me - you have these weird flex connectors to retrofit the new water heater, but you have the thing seismic strapped. I understand codes but these 2 things seem to contradict each other. Also, no vacuum relief valve? Must be a code thing...

                Call me picky but I'm a much bigger fan of putting a recirc pump above the hot & cold water tank connections, and tee'd into the cold with a spring loaded check valve in the cold line so the pump only pumps into the tank. Having said that, and being objective, pulling the drain body and pumping into the drain connection with a tee will take some of the strain off of the dip tube from repeated flow/circulation from the recirc pump. So that's not a bad idea to help the life of the tank. And of course an expansion tank would be appreciated but might not be neccessary if you have no check valve on the incoming domestic line and the House's PRV will allow the pressure to flow backwards into the street. Couldn't you sell the home owner on that little recirc pump with the timer? I mean bronze pumps are expensive enough as is...mgiht as well have gotten the lighter and easier to install, as well as more efficient one with the timer.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                  Scott, when the expansion tank goes bad, all the future plumber would have to do is shut the 3/4" Ball Valve right above the expansion tank, install the new one, and turn the valve back on. That's one of the reason's the valve is above the expansion tank. Second, it's also above the expansion tank so someone doesn't shut the valve, and allow a chance for the pressure to build up.
                  Proud To Be Union!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                    Aaron, You are right in the fact that if the expansion tank goes, which is a once in every few years to many years type of thing, that it shouldn't be a big deal to change with the way you have it configured compared to the way I described it (the way I described it will take you mere minutes, maybe even seconds). And I never said the way you had it configured valve wise would eliminate ever being able to remove it. It's just the way I explained it to you would save you a hell of a lot more time as a service guy (like I said - if it's in the budget do it, but it's probably not on your average home owners dime - in high end houses this is how my company does it because if you need to shut off the hot water to a 20,000 square foot house with (2) 300 gallon hot water tanks it can be a big deal because you have to drain out the entire hot water system just to change an expansion tank so it's not a bad idea to be able to isolate your expansion tank exclusively).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                      Aaron, I have been doing service plumbing for a long time now and I say never put a valve between expansion tank and piping no matter the size of the house. That will just to encourage a homeowner or a handyman to try and do the job themselves without calling a plumber. And expansion tanks should always be installed vertically preferable before the WH shut-off valve otherwise it's to easy. Believe me the service guy will be grateful when his phone rings. Nice sweat joints too.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                        W.C. & Aaron, thanks for posting the pictures.
                        Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                          Originally posted by Batman View Post
                          Aaron, I have been doing service plumbing for a long time now and I say never put a valve between expansion tank and piping no matter the size of the house. That will just to encourage a homeowner or a handyman to try and do the job themselves without calling a plumber. And expansion tanks should always be installed vertically preferable before the WH shut-off valve otherwise it's to easy. Believe me the service guy will be grateful when his phone rings. Nice sweat joints too.
                          I call serious BS on this. If the guy (owner) has any sort of mechanical aptitude at all, then yes, he will figure out how to drain down any system to change that expansion tank (and he will know it's his expansion tank that is causing his T & P to go off). It's just a question of how easy it is to do. But if the person has no clue they will wonder why their T & P is constantly going off they will call a plumber regardless. You show up, get some water coming out of the snifter valve, bingo. I'll be in and out in a few minutes. You'll be in and out in more then that with your installation. We'll still charge the same flat rate more than likely.

                          I take pride in building my heating & plumbing systems to last a long time. I don't take pride in building them to nickel and dime the customer because I didn't do something right or properly. And knowing that most customers appreciate the good work my company does, if they do have a small problem I like making the repair as quick as possible which further influences their faith in our installation and quality. I guess I can appreciate your capitalist attitude but I think as an installer I have a lot more pride than you. Must be the small smidge of German in me, as well as the fact I own a Toyota truck.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                            I would never put a union on a T&P, if only to keep amateurs from messing with it. I might have tried to use less nineties on the drain. (Straight to the side, eliminate the swing joint.) But that's a pretty minor consideration.

                            The solder looks pretty good to me on both units, but then, I'm used to M tube here, which tends to spread the heat faster and hence the solder. (It was also a lot easier to do neat joints with 50-50 back in the day . . .)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                              Hey Scott, can you post some pictures of your work?
                              Proud To Be Union!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                                WCP...where does the pump move water from the HW drain back to? what activates the pump?

                                BATMAN...i hope this doesn't start a war, but , as a DIY guy, i was disappointed when I updated some plumbing and realized that, had a previous plumber installed a few extra shut offs, my maintenance of the HW heater and boiler would be a lot easier. i agree with scott k, do it right for whoever follows you and don't nickel and dime customers, especially the unsuspecting ones.
                                there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.

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