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  • #31
    Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

    i would not install a ring/ spring loaded check valve on the inlet side of this small pump. i would install it on the outlet side. plus those isolation stops on the flange unions are a joke. after a couple of months they freeze up.



    arron what happened to your unions on the inlet/ outlet of the heater?

    also a dielectric or brass nipple would be a wise choice. even if those are dielectric nipples. also a strap on the expansion tank would be nice.

    rick.

    The isolation stops are a joke, this is why I installed ball valves.

    I agree with rick aaron, you should have used 6" long brass nipples and fip's or 3/4 fip x copper brass unions, those dielectric nipples on water heaters are a joke.

    the expansion tank needs to be strapped for sure.

    great solder joints though!!!!
    sigpic

    Robert

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

      Robert, looks good, some code differences, but looks good. I didn't see the "west coast plumbing and sewer" ad on the heater though. Don't forget about those.[/quote]


      Gear Junkie....Ben,

      Yeah, the wife asked the same thing, I need to go back and set a sink, so I will plaster one on then and take another pic. They have one on their garbage disposal though
      sigpic

      Robert

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

        Originally posted by Scott K View Post
        Aaron,
        You should always try and install expansion tanks so that they are vertical with the tank hanging below it's connection threads (so that the snifter/air valve is on the bottom), and supported so that when you first fire it up, you can displace the air in the expansion tank with water as the air will escape upwards. That explansion tank you installed horizontally has an air pocket in it that will never be able to leave effectively reducing it's performance. If it isn't lined or the lining fails, the air pocket will eat away at the expansion tank causing it to fail prematurely. It's also a good practice if the budget allows for serviceability (I like to think of the service guy) to install a valve so you can isolate the expansion tank, and even a drain down between the shut off valve and the expansion tank so you can drain off the pressure and then remove it and replace it.


        As for the original installation pictures from West Coast Plumber - can you enlighten me - you have these weird flex connectors to retrofit the new water heater, but you have the thing seismic strapped. I understand codes but these 2 things seem to contradict each other. Also, no vacuum relief valve? Must be a code thing...

        Call me picky but I'm a much bigger fan of putting a recirc pump above the hot & cold water tank connections, and tee'd into the cold with a spring loaded check valve in the cold line so the pump only pumps into the tank. Having said that, and being objective, pulling the drain body and pumping into the drain connection with a tee will take some of the strain off of the dip tube from repeated flow/circulation from the recirc pump. So that's not a bad idea to help the life of the tank. And of course an expansion tank would be appreciated but might not be neccessary if you have no check valve on the incoming domestic line and the House's PRV will allow the pressure to flow backwards into the street. Couldn't you sell the home owner on that little recirc pump with the timer? I mean bronze pumps are expensive enough as is...mgiht as well have gotten the lighter and easier to install, as well as more efficient one with the timer.

        The electrician is coming to install a timer with a switch for manuel and "timer" shut off. It will only run during peek times, not all the time.

        The system is not considered a closed system, no prv, but as explained before, an expansion tank is needed only in certain cities.

        As far as the location of the recirc and the 3/4 loop, I am happy with pulling the hot from where I did, I will entertain your idea of piping it through the top, but I have always piped it from the boiler drain.

        I am suprised there is so much comment on the copper water flex as they are very popular out here, 75 gallon and above are hard piped in.

        Adam, Rick, you hard pipe or flex your waters in???? Hard pipe is great, but much more expensive on labor and mater, if there is an earthquake, I would wnat the flex to break instead of the hard pipe, who knows where that hard pipe is going to break, it would make a repair job much more time consuming, especially if it broke off in the wall.

        good points though, I'll keep them in mind. Rick, comment on the recirc above the tank, curious about your opinion.
        sigpic

        Robert

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

          Originally posted by Scott K View Post
          Aaron, You are right in the fact that if the expansion tank goes, which is a once in every few years to many years type of thing, that it shouldn't be a big deal to change with the way you have it configured compared to the way I described it (the way I described it will take you mere minutes, maybe even seconds). And I never said the way you had it configured valve wise would eliminate ever being able to remove it. It's just the way I explained it to you would save you a hell of a lot more time as a service guy (like I said - if it's in the budget do it, but it's probably not on your average home owners dime - in high end houses this is how my company does it because if you need to shut off the hot water to a 20,000 square foot house with (2) 300 gallon hot water tanks it can be a big deal because you have to drain out the entire hot water system just to change an expansion tank so it's not a bad idea to be able to isolate your expansion tank exclusively).
          vapor lock???? never had to drain the system to change an expansion tank, you have a few seconds.....
          sigpic

          Robert

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          • #35
            Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

            Originally posted by FINER9998 View Post
            WCP...where does the pump move water from the HW drain back to? what activates the pump?

            BATMAN...i hope this doesn't start a war, but , as a DIY guy, i was disappointed when I updated some plumbing and realized that, had a previous plumber installed a few extra shut offs, my maintenance of the HW heater and boiler would be a lot easier. i agree with scott k, do it right for whoever follows you and don't nickel and dime customers, especially the unsuspecting ones.


            The line pulls hot water from the furthest fixture, in this case is the kitchen sink. I changed whatever 1/2 copper, installed 3/4 to the verticle riser for the k/s, meaning the loop is 3/4.

            I installed a ball valve att he k/s, so the return line can be isolated in case it ever has to be shut down, and it won't effect the use of water in the house.

            Then the line ties into the bottom of the heater, pulling hot water throught the sytem and back to the water heater.
            sigpic

            Robert

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            • #36
              Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

              Scott ,I can't believe You're an apprentice. You sure bring a lot to the table. Hope You post more!
              I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                The line pulls hot water from the furthest fixture, in this case is the kitchen sink. I changed whatever 1/2 copper, installed 3/4 to the verticle riser for the k/s, meaning the loop is 3/4.

                I installed a ball valve att he k/s, so the return line can be isolated in case it ever has to be shut down, and it won't effect the use of water in the house.

                Then the line ties into the bottom of the heater, pulling hot water throught the sytem and back to the water heater.
                Saw a heater last week that someone paid one of our local idiots(who claims to be a plumber even with a license) a lot of money,that had the recirc pump and check backwards.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                  Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                  The electrician is coming to install a timer with a switch for manuel and "timer" shut off. It will only run during peek times, not all the time.

                  when the electrical is done in flex, i install a grundfos timer $55.00. if it's a zip cord, then i have a much less expensive multi set timer $15.00.
                  typically on at 6am off at 9am. and on at 5pm off at 10pm. most of the better times are 15 minute segments. i then set on off times every 15 minutes to cut down the wear on the pipe. if it's a condo building/ apt. i need to keep it running throughout the night. on a private home i will cycle it and sht it off at night.

                  The system is not considered a closed system, no prv, but as explained before, an expansion tank is needed only in certain cities.

                  i agree

                  As far as the location of the recirc and the 3/4 loop, I am happy with pulling the hot from where I did, I will entertain your idea of piping it through the top, but I have always piped it from the boiler drain.

                  stick with the boiler drain. you actually will not need a check valve if you do the drain. on the cold inlet you will need a check and the dip tube will suffer.


                  I am suprised there is so much comment on the copper water flex as they are very popular out here, 75 gallon and above are hard piped in.



                  Adam, Rick, you hard pipe or flex your waters in???? Hard pipe is great, but much more expensive on labor and mater, if there is an earthquake, I would wnat the flex to break instead of the hard pipe, who knows where that hard pipe is going to break, it would make a repair job much more time consuming, especially if it broke off in the wall.

                  even though the heater is seismic strapped. an earthquake will shake a 500# heater and the pipe will get damaged or broken. same reason why we flex our gas at the valve.

                  good points though, I'll keep them in mind. Rick, comment on the recirc above the tank, curious about your opinion.

                  i do it as you did. i just don't like those ring checks and i install my own ball valves as the grundfos ones suck

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    i do it as you did. i just don't like those ring checks and i install my own ball valves as the grundfos ones suck

                    rick.
                    Same here, this is why I installed all those ball valves, yellow handles, cause the stops never work on those unions for the pump.

                    I asked for a swing check but got a verticle check, I perfer swings. Never thought of installing it on the other side of the pump, maybe I will try that next time. then the pump won't have to pull through the check, it will push through
                    sigpic

                    Robert

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                      Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                      The electrician is coming to install a timer with a switch for manuel and "timer" shut off. It will only run during peek times, not all the time.

                      The system is not considered a closed system, no prv, but as explained before, an expansion tank is needed only in certain cities.

                      As far as the location of the recirc and the 3/4 loop, I am happy with pulling the hot from where I did, I will entertain your idea of piping it through the top, but I have always piped it from the boiler drain.

                      I am suprised there is so much comment on the copper water flex as they are very popular out here, 75 gallon and above are hard piped in.

                      Adam, Rick, you hard pipe or flex your waters in???? Hard pipe is great, but much more expensive on labor and mater, if there is an earthquake, I would wnat the flex to break instead of the hard pipe, who knows where that hard pipe is going to break, it would make a repair job much more time consuming, especially if it broke off in the wall.

                      good points though, I'll keep them in mind. Rick, comment on the recirc above the tank, curious about your opinion.
                      Why charge the customer to have an electrician come when you can buy a pump with the timer built right in and it'll actually be easier to install than what you have installed because they don't require flanges, they have 1/2" IPS connectons and they're a bit lighter than your traditional flanged pump. My company uses the Grundfos ones with timers built right in. I know Taco and a few other manufacturers make similar versions.

                      Obviously if it is not a closed system then an expansion tank isn't needed because the built up pressure then the tank is full of hot water can back flow into the city main. If it's got a check valve and a closed system, even if whatever code said I didn't need one, I would still adamantly try and upsell an expansion tank on the customer despite it's added cost and irregardless of what a code says. In a closed system how many more years can an expansion tank add?

                      Also - about the pump - my comment about putting the recirc pump and tying it into the top piping was a preference thing - just for cleanliness of install, etc. but I actually pointed out that pulling the drain valve and installing a tee and pumping into that is probably beneficial from a life of the tank standpoint - takes stress off the dip tube from constant circulation and it'll probably do a much better job of preventing sediment build up in the bottom of the tank. It's just a more costly way to install it but probably a better way for the life of the tank and something I will definately consider for future installations.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                        Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                        yeah, I know it was not needed, but it was installed when I threw the flange pump away, you know all about that one dear Adam!!

                        screw the union on the t&p, that could be construed as a code violation due to some one being able to cap it or plug it off, never a union on my t&p, call a plumber to install a coupling if it has to be cut.

                        I am suprised no one commented on the 3/4 bracket clamps holding the line solid My trademark, I use those whenever I can, makes the job clean and strong. you can swing off that line now.

                        No one commented on the ECO Freiendly water heater also, does that white unitrol look different to the guys back east?? It's a special cali thing.......I think, for the low nox regs...... or was that just the change to the fire box, that raised the cost $125 big ones???
                        Do you put those clamps everywhere they are needed(hot,cold,hot water return,every 6' and all offsets).Or just in visually strategic locations.They make hangers that are considerably more cost effective(labor) and function just as well.I'd have to make the homeowner take out a second construction loan to put those things on the entire water system.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                          Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                          The electrician is coming to install a timer with a switch for manuel and "timer" shut off. It will only run during peek times, not all the time.

                          The system is not considered a closed system, no prv, but as explained before, an expansion tank is needed only in certain cities.

                          As far as the location of the recirc and the 3/4 loop, I am happy with pulling the hot from where I did, I will entertain your idea of piping it through the top, but I have always piped it from the boiler drain.

                          I am suprised there is so much comment on the copper water flex as they are very popular out here, 75 gallon and above are hard piped in.

                          Adam, Rick, you hard pipe or flex your waters in???? Hard pipe is great, but much more expensive on labor and mater, if there is an earthquake, I would wnat the flex to break instead of the hard pipe, who knows where that hard pipe is going to break, it would make a repair job much more time consuming, especially if it broke off in the wall.

                          good points though, I'll keep them in mind. Rick, comment on the recirc above the tank, curious about your opinion.
                          I flex 3/4".Hard pipe larger.

                          I dont like my hot water recirc up there by the cold feed.Too many comments on not only needing the check on the recirc now I need one on the cold.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                            in our town in an NYC suburb, no flex on water lines and the plumbing inspector only permits gas flex if the appliance has to be "moveable". he appears to be truly "old school".
                            there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                              The Grundfos timer is about $55.00. Not a great deal. I usually use a timer similiar to that used for turning on xmas lights. Intermatic makes them & any home depot carries them for about $13. Just make sure that you get the 3 prong grounded timer. They make a electronic one with a battery backup for about $20. I would put a thermostat on the return line as well. I do not use the copper water flex lines, especially with a recirc system. The constant flow of water through them actually wears the copper away. They become very brittle after a while. When you remove an old one check how easy they break in half.
                              I use the corrugated stainless steel lines. They are not braided but solid stainless. They are full port unlike the copper flex

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: water heater with recirc retrofit

                                Originally posted by plumbstar@dslextreme.com View Post
                                I use the corrugated stainless steel lines. They are not braided but solid stainless. They are full port unlike the copper flex

                                Thats funny, I replace so many braided stainless steel lines on water heaters. If anything, they are just as bad as the copper water flex lines.

                                Are you a service plumber or new construction???
                                Last edited by westcoastplumber; 02-19-2008, 07:30 PM.
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                                Robert

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