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  • #16
    Re: Toilet Help!?

    hellow im new to the board but i cant stop thinking about this angle stop. I came across one of these recently on a side job in a manufactured home. the nut was able to turn and slide back on the cpvc exposing the end of pipe which was flared and then a o ring to complete the seal to the stop. the o ring was bad and i replaced it. It looks the same from picture. but not positive i did it correctly.

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    • #17
      Re: Toilet Help!?

      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
      Why not a stainless steel riser?

      I hope I am not going to hear what I think may be said.
      Many times the riser is not exactly the right length so you have to bend the excess out of the way causing some force to be pushed down on the angle stop. This can break old cpvc which is very brittle. A ridgid riser will actually support the angle stop and give it almost another anchoring point.

      Did you hope right?
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

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      • #18
        Re: Toilet Help!?

        Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
        Well since no one brought this up, maybe the plumber had no clue what he was looking at and figured he would have to cut into the wall and replace pipe and fitings all the way to the main???

        It is hard to say this is just a flat rate company that bid this.....

        I had a quote the other day, the plumber clearely didn't know what he was looking at and he quoted an outrageous price, this does not mean he is flat rate company.

        Get your head out of the box buddy Rickets, think of other possibilities buddy, not just those that support your feelings, you would be a good politician my friend.

        last time i checked, a time and material plumber doesn't round up to even $100.00 increments. you have a material cost and a labor cost, hence, time and material. a 10 minute job with $15.00 worth of parts is not a $300 or $600 time and material bid. it's a flat rate, contract price.

        unless we are all missing something, i can't see it being that expensive. or were they changing all the stops in the entire house?

        today, i looked at a stacking washer and dryer in a small cabinet. the watts combination hot cold shut off is bad. since i need to remove the machine and replace the valve, i am going to replace the 7 year old hoses too.

        my price quoted was not to exceed $225.00. that's, based on shutting off the 3 story stack and removing the stacking machine from the closet by myself. will i make money? sure, as long as i don't damage the floor.

        i know that i have a lot more risk and investment in parts and time than the simple angle stop he is posting. at $225.00 i still make money and the customer is very happy. at $600.00 i lose the entire building that i've worked for the last 14 years.

        the more that homeowners question the cost, the faster it will take the crooks out of the picture. we all complain about hacks, this is just another gimmick they offer. show me 1 qualified plumber that can't get this done in under an hour. unless the hourly rate has gone up to $285.-$585 an hour, i must be missing something.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Toilet Help!?

          I think flat rate is a different way to quote a price. I informally polled some of my customers and asked what would they rather pay xxx for the 1st hour and xx each hour after that OR xxx and that's it, even though the 2 prices are the same for 2 hrs work. The majority of my customers said they like the flat rate option because they know upfront what the job will cost and that was there only reason. I like T&M because if I'm at a customer house for 2 hours, pay me for 2 hours not my prediction but my customers would rather hear a flat rate price.

          The T&M becomes contradictory as you become a better plumber. I'll use me and Rick as an example. We both charge 100 per hour. We do the same job but because Rick is a better plumber he gets the job done in 1 hour and I got the job done in 3. Rick, the better plumber, got paid 100 and me(the less experienced plumber) got paid 300. This is a huge drawback to T&M. In almost every industry, the better, faster more efficent worker gets paid more but a sole proprieter using T&M doesn't follow this concept.

          Once again I'll use Rick as an example. A customer isn't paying for a plumber when they call Rick(or you). They're paying for your knowledge, training, specialty tools and the peace of mind knowing Rick will get the job done right. Rick has a motorized hand truck to help him move a water heater and this hand truck cost 1000(I'm using this as an example). This allows Rick to get the job done twice as fast because he's now more efficent, but at what cost? He's getting paid less because he's more efficent when he should be getting paid more for his efficency.

          Flat rate supports paying the professional for his assests as he becomes more proficent in the trade. T&M fails in this aspect.
          Buy cheap, buy twice.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Toilet Help!?

            Where and why do they come up with the out of control prices I'm seeing.If I was to go service and hit flat rate 40 hours a week would pay somewhere around $5000.00.

            I would have my truck and garage stocked and have the supply house deliver to my home whenever possible to save me trips so I could stay on the road changing flappers.

            Just out of curiosity,
            I just tuned up an engineer that works a few of my jobs home.A six bath house.How much to...
            1.Free up garbage disposal(thanks for the advice on the garbage disposals Robert).
            2.Pull and reset bidet on marble(plumber used washered slip nut with washer and wasn't able to screw it on to trap adapter so he left it leaking damaging dining room ceiling).
            3.Change out 4 year old Santec bidet cartridges.
            4.Tighten a Grohe tub/shower assembly that wasn't tightened internally during instalation.
            5.Re-silicone after digging out old @ kitchen sink under granite because granite installer did not use epoxy.
            6.Raise three lav drain pop-ups because dummy did not tighten adjustment nuts.
            7.Remove hair from lav drain.
            8.Re-connect two piece pop-up rod that wasn't tightened and fell apart.
            9.Re-align and tighten hot and cold valves on 8" widespread.
            10.Tighten two loose and flopping lav spouts.
            11.Install new shower drain grate with stainless 10-32X1/2" screws

            I was there 2:45 hours I charged him $300.00 plus material.

            What would the book say to charge.

            I'm willing to bet it would be more than $1800.00

            No wonder we have so many people wanting to jump into the flat rate plumbing gig.

            In the supply house they sure know how to talk the talk...But out in the field is crap.
            Last edited by drtyhands; 02-11-2008, 11:00 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Toilet Help!?

              Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
              I think flat rate is a different way to quote a price. I informally polled some of my customers and asked what would they rather pay xxx for the 1st hour and xx each hour after that OR xxx and that's it, even though the 2 prices are the same for 2 hrs work. The majority of my customers said they like the flat rate option because they know upfront what the job will cost and that was there only reason. I like T&M because if I'm at a customer house for 2 hours, pay me for 2 hours not my prediction but my customers would rather hear a flat rate price.

              The T&M becomes contradictory as you become a better plumber. I'll use me and Rick as an example. We both charge 100 per hour. We do the same job but because Rick is a better plumber he gets the job done in 1 hour and I got the job done in 3. Rick, the better plumber, got paid 100 and me(the less experienced plumber) got paid 300. This is a huge drawback to T&M. In almost every industry, the better, faster more efficent worker gets paid more but a sole proprieter using T&M doesn't follow this concept.

              Once again I'll use Rick as an example. A customer isn't paying for a plumber when they call Rick(or you). They're paying for your knowledge, training, specialty tools and the peace of mind knowing Rick will get the job done right. Rick has a motorized hand truck to help him move a water heater and this hand truck cost 1000(I'm using this as an example). This allows Rick to get the job done twice as fast because he's now more efficent, but at what cost? He's getting paid less because he's more efficent when he should be getting paid more for his efficency.

              Flat rate supports paying the professional for his assests as he becomes more proficent in the trade. T&M fails in this aspect.
              you brought up some good points ben

              but it also works both ways.

              a simple job like this angle stop is not rocket science. and it's not a $300-$600 job. if the homeowner doesn't know this, then sure they will feal good knowing what it will cost. but will they be calling you again for a 15 minute $300-$600 job again?

              the hourly wage on this is not justifyed. that's the reason why the person posting has asked this question. not because he is cheap, but because he knows better

              sure if i was a piece worker, i would make a fortune. but i work the small jobs on a t and m basis. even large jobs are based on a t and m basis and not a price book that is looking to clear 3-6 hundred an hour.

              maybe it's because i have a conscience. i'm in no way starving and i'm not ready to retire tomorrow. what ever happened to an honest days work for an honest days pays

              once again ben, thanks for the posts.

              rick.

              there is nothing wrong with a contract price, but base it on a certain hourly rate. not a rate that is posted in a book that actually hides what you bill out at. we might not be doctors, but we shouldn't bill out as if we are.
              there's a reason why i don't wait for the phone to ring and i don't have to advertise. the original poster i'm sure looked up an advertised plumbing co and not a company that he has used before. i could be wrong, but i doubt it on this one

              sure i opened up the flat rate can of worms but i am just informing the public to this scam. someone please break this price down for me and the poster to show us where all the cost are? i already did
              phoebe it is

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              • #22
                Re: Toilet Help!?

                Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                Where and why do they come up with the out of control prices I'm seeing.If I was to go service and hit flat rate 40 hours a week would pay somewhere around $5000.00.
                adam, probably a lot more than that. that's only 8.5-17 angle stops for the entire week

                I would have my truck and garage stocked and have the supply house deliver to my home whenever possible to save me trips so I could stay on the road changing flappers.

                the funny part is they don't even stock the basic parts. they buy them as needed on the customers dime. or the overly inflated flat rate price.

                i doubt there is a sole proprieter out there that has as much inventory, equipment and shop as i do. i don't understand thier mentality. "get them while the getting is good and sit home the rest of the week"

                Just out of curiosity,
                I just tuned up an engineer that works a few of my jobs home.A six bath house.How much to...
                1.Free up garbage disposal.
                2.Pull and reset bidet on marble(plumber used washered slip nut with washer and wasn't able to screw it on to trap adapter so he left it leaking damaging dining room ceiling).
                3.Change out 4 year old Santec bidet cartridges.
                4.Tighten a Grohe tub/shower assembly that wasn't tightened internally during instalation.
                5.Re-silicone after digging out old @ kitchen sink under granite because granite installer did not use epoxy.
                6.Raise three lav drain pop-ups because dummy did not tighten adjustment nuts.
                7.Remove hair from lav drain.
                8.Re-connect two piece pop-up rod that wasn't tightened and fell apart.
                9.Re-align and tighten hot and cold valves on 8" widespread.
                10.Tighten two loose and flopping lav spouts.
                11.Install new shower drain grate with stainless 10-32X1/2" screws

                I was there 2:45 hours I charged him $300.00 plus material.

                What would the book say to charge.

                I'm willing to bet it would be more than $1800.00

                No wonder we have so many people wanting to jump into the flat rate plumbing gig.

                In the supply house they sure know how to talk the talk...But out in the field is crap.
                100% correct
                adam, it time to clean up the dirty hands and come work with me,
                not for me.

                show me an honest plumber that went bust

                but i can show you many not so honest plumbers that went out of business.

                call me

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Toilet Help!?

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  100% correct
                  adam, it time to clean up the dirty hands and come work with me,
                  not for me.

                  show me an honest plumber that went bust

                  but i can show you many not so honest plumbers that went out of business.

                  call me

                  rick.
                  As much fun as I had today playing service plumber I'm fairly confident at this point in my life the romance would be about as short lived as the first foolish homeowner to say something stupid over $15.00.

                  I always enjoy working with you,the same goes for Robert.The reason is you guys care.You care to do the best possible,no exceptions,no excuses whatever it takes.It is a recharge to my soul.

                  When are you going to give me my K-60 demo!!!
                  I wanna start chalking up some Ridgid points before the roundup this summer HEE-HE-HEEEE.

                  Call me...........................patient

                  Adam
                  Last edited by drtyhands; 02-11-2008, 11:20 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Toilet Help!?

                    I know one thing. You West coasters wouldnt make it out here. T&M is a thing of the past around here. Just about every plumber, drain cleaner, electrician, HVAC are flat rate.

                    Honesty is the best thing. So when i hear that companies that use flat rate are scammers, thats when i get alittle ticked off. Lets talk about the scamming. How is it that someone who charges T&M will snake a line for 2 hrs, when it was the outside vent that was clogged, a 10min job. Plumbing is different, and i agree its hard to charge flat rate for plumbing, i know 1st hand, i worked for a company that did, and it never worked out.

                    But if you guys think all flat raters are scammers? come work with me for a week. Ill even let you guys work up the prices. I have more customers ask me if im flat rate or hourly, when i tell them flat rate, they tell me good, i dont want anyone charging me hourly. This is the East Coast way. I DO NOT speak for everyone around here. But i know and i feel that giving a customer a direct quote for cleaning out a line, or changing out a garbage disposal that is a solid price, no hidden charges for oops forgot about the j-bend, or oops your garbage disposal wasnt jammed, you need a new one, stupid stuff like that. The price i give you is the price your going to pay, and the work that is going to get done will be the best around.

                    Flat rate might not work in Plumbing, i grant you that. But do not call people who use it scammers. Ive been using flat rate for over 4yrs now with the co i use to work for and my own company and i have not had ONE PRICE COMPLAINT, nor have i ever lost customers. I have had commercial accounts use me strictly because im flat rate.
                    The History of Sanitary Sewers Good site on the history of sanitary sewers and cleaners

                    www.thedrainsquad.net Our website

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                    • #25
                      Re: Toilet Help!?

                      I doubt there is a sole proprieter out there that has as much inventory, equipment and shop as i do.

                      wow!!!Are you in the guiness book of records? you should be!! the only sole proprieter that has the biggest inventory!!


                      Contact Details

                      Guinness World Records Limited
                      184-192 Drummond Street
                      3rd Floor
                      London NW1 3HP
                      United Kingdom

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                      • #26
                        Re: Toilet Help!?

                        You are more than welcome to be ticked off Greg,I would if I was you.Not all flat rate plumbers are pigs.You know how much I respect you and Robert along with virtually all the concientious members here.The statements are ment to draw attention to my views of the perception not the people like yourselves.

                        I can make an absolute killing at the flat rate prices.It seems more than what I deserve for being a professional.Now if it took me twice as long because I did not know what I was doing and working inefficiently(which the homeowner will never know most of the time)I would need the book prices.

                        Dude,I'll have a house,motor home and Harly inside of five years at F/R if I could learn to keep my mouth shut.

                        If the nation is going flat rate I'm not going to deny myself what I have earned.I need to understand what these prices represent.I cannot see myself as some kind of superplumber worth $1500.00 plus a day adding marked up material.

                        Adam

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Toilet Help!?

                          i doubt there is a sole proprieter out there that has as much inventory, equipment and shop as i do. i don't understand thier mentality. "get them while the getting is good and sit home the rest of the week"



                          Oh Rick, you are so wrong, I know of 3 that have more then you do, I have yet to see your "Shop" but I tell you what, I doubt it is over 25,000 square feet, multiple vans and liner and pull equipment, and the 2 of them are women, both sole proprietors. Multiple drain cleaning machines, best on the market, Spartans, ridgid cameras etc.

                          Rick, this is where you and I don't see eye to eye, you are to close minded and you generalize, this is 2008, time to open up to change and understand that things change, whether you like it or not. I am suprised you are in the position you are, business owners need to be able to adapt to changing times, you appear to have a very hard time adapting.

                          This is once again 2008, times have changed, our overhead is twice what yours is due to higher mortgage and insurance rates etc. You have done this for "20 years" or so, things were alot less expensive then they are now, and there wasn't nearly as much competition.

                          I would not be proud of being a 1 man shop and have 5 -k-60's that do not make money on a daily basis, they just sit around waiting to be used or wait to be a back up when another goes down.

                          You have your way of doing things and others have their way, just because someone does something different then you, does not mean they are scammers, cheats, cons or hacks.
                          Last edited by westcoastplumber; 02-12-2008, 12:19 AM.
                          sigpic

                          Robert

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                          • #28
                            Re: Toilet Help!?

                            Rick,we were tag teamed.Greg ran diversion by keeping me on the phone while Robert posted.

                            Thanks for clearing things up for me even more Greg.Ben spent an hour the other night trying to explain how hourly works.

                            You know,it would help a lot if you guys would explain that the book is kind of a guideline for the beginner and that most of you adjust your prices down because your not a pig.

                            Some guys charge $900.00 as their F/R for a water heater,the guy down the street charges $4,000.00 for the same product.

                            It is up to the consumer to research to find the most economical.

                            It still seems that flat rate has caused a major influx of unscrupulous individuals in the first 20 pages of the phone book.Oh wait, Actually they need those inflated prices to pay for their add and their technician that takes four times as long.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Toilet Help!?

                              Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                              i doubt there is a sole proprieter out there that has as much inventory, equipment and shop as i do. i don't understand thier mentality. "get them while the getting is good and sit home the rest of the week"



                              Oh Rick, you are so wrong, I know of 3 that have more then you do, I have yet to see your "Shop" but I tell you what, I doubt it is over 25,000 square feet, multiple vans and liner and pull equipment, and the 2 of them are women, both sole proprietors. Multiple drain cleaning machines, best on the market, Spartans, ridgid cameras etc.

                              and these women don't have any employees? what i meant, as you know is sole proprietier, no employees. so i would rather doubt there is a self employeed individual that has amassed as much as i have. what i referring to is you all say i'm under priced. if i'm not charging flat rate i'm doing something wrong. and if i'm doing something wrong, how have i been able to buy so much? no bragging, but just making a point. remember i was a union plumber for 14 years making wages. starting off at $5.89 an hour in 1981.

                              Rick, this is where you and I don't see eye to eye, you are to close minded and you generalize, this is 2008, time to open up to change and understand that things change, whether you like it or not. I am suprised you are in the position you are, business owners need to be able to adapt to changing times, you appear to have a very hard time adapting.
                              adapting to new times. i don't see any other company with all the new technology as me. when other plumbing companies and contractors come to me to do their work, since they don't own that equipment, i think they need to come up to the times.


                              This is once again 2008, times have changed, our overhead is twice what yours is due to higher mortgage and insurance rates etc. You have done this for "20 years" or so, things were alot less expensive then they are now, and there wasn't nearly as much competition.
                              so wrong robert, when i bought my house, i was also complaining why i pay 3 to 4 times more property taxes than my neighbors.
                              i doubt your overhead is as much as mine. as i have 2 mortages,
                              2 property insurance, 2 property taxes, 5 vehicles insurance and registration plus 2 trailers (jetter and puller), liability insurance with hoa coverage with 2 million/ 2 million. so unless your overhead is more than mine, your're wrong again.

                              there is more competition now, correct. it's due to all the flat rate companines that are in it for the short haul. just open up the yellow pages and see all the flat rate ads with all the new license numbers. then go to the cslb and see all the newer lic. numbers that are revolked. of couse you'll have to sort the plumbing from the rest of the licenses.
                              haven't you already commented on the dumbing down of the trade?
                              guess what, it's due to the flat rate companies. a time and material company overall has a much higher talent pool than the flat rate companies. when someone is paying by the hour, they are more in tune to what they are paying for. with flat rate they already know what they paid for. so even if it takes 2 to 3 times longer, they are not as concerned. and why so much longer? because they are not qualified to do the job. 1 month driving shotgun is not the same as 4-5 years of apprenticeship and on the job training. so the fact is, these newer companies are due to the quick buck that flat rate promotes.

                              next time you're at the supply house will call counter, just listen to all the talk of them bragging on what they charged the customer. also listen closely as they waste your time not even knowing the proper name of the material they came in for. then pay attention to their age. it's the younger ones that are like this.

                              if there was only flat rate with fixed prices, then there would be price fixing. and we all know that is illegal.

                              I would not be proud of being a 1 man shop and have 5 -k-60's that do not make money on a daily basis, they just sit around waiting to be used or wait to be a back up when another goes down.

                              but robert, you are a 1 man shop. and you have a total of 3 machines to choose from. not bad, but not enough of a choice to handle anything and everything that comes my way. and drain cleaning is not my main business. by the way, it's only 3 for now

                              You have your way of doing things and others have their way, just because someone does something different then you, does not mean they are scammers, cheats, cons or hacks.
                              all we have asked is what is the cost of doing business and why is that cost hidden in a book that doesn't give an hourly rate. so if your going to defend flat rate, how did you establish that rate? what is that rate? why hide that rate? not picking on you robert, but if you're the one defending it with your comments towards me, then answer my very simple questions.

                              so far not 1 has be answered.

                              greg is in a different boat with drain cleaning. i too give a price on drain cleaning and camering. but it's based on an hourly rate and an hourly total.

                              i hope that when you get larger that you don't rely on aflat rate book to give you prices. you would never get a contract job that is put out to bid. ie new construction jobs.

                              i have yet to lose a job to a flat rate company that was put out to bid.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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                              • #30
                                Re: Toilet Help!?

                                We have a 12 man shop and have been flat rate for the past 4 years. I will admit that we do make adjustments in the pricing fairly often. However the single most important part of running a business is knowing your costs (all of them) to the penny. Many many contractors go out of business because they refuse to charge what they need to charge to make a profit. You cannot base your rates or hourly fees on what everyone else in the area is charging. Your rates need to be based on your costs plus a reasonable profit margin. It's a tough lesson. Back in the mid 70's I had a partner and 8 employees. We were doing so much work it was insane. Thought we were making money hand over fist untill out accountant set us straight. Turns out we were loosing money.
                                I like flat rate and so do our customers. We get questions, but very few complaints. As for those companies abusing the system, well they're the same ones that abuse time and material pricing also. There will always be get rich quick bandits around, there always has been, but the tend to fade away fairly fast.
                                sigpic

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