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  • How are the relining processes?

    Hi folks, brand new here. I've been reading for a few hours, and getting some good insight. I'm not a plumber, and not very knowledgeable about the trade.

    I have and older house in San Diego, circa 1962. It has a cast iron main. I am having a re-curring root problem, and have had the drain video'd a couple times, and have root intrusion 13' under the slab, 24" deep. Outside, in the front yard, I had a two way ABS clean out installed. The camera shows roots at the "property clean-out" as the plumber calls it, which is a buried vertical drop some 6 feet or so from the house, and also a couple more places toward the street and even under the street. I've heard that the city is responsible for anything past the sidwalk, but getting them to do anything takes an act of congress.

    Until the recent rains, the plumber has been snaking the drain at about 6 week intervals, and pulling out a 4-6 foot wad of roots nearly as big around as your wrist. We're amazed at how quickly they come back. So, I'm looking at the best way to cure the problem.

    Regarding re-lining, I'm hearing lots of advertising for NuFlow re-lining. Do any of you have any knowledge of the process, and the expense? It seems they'd have to do it in several sections because of the vents, laundry and toilet connections. My plumber doesn't have much faith or knowledge of the process, as he's an independent and not a big company like the ones offering this service here in town. A friend recently dug up and replaced a lot of his sewer, and it was scary looking. The 3" pipe was closed down to an inch or less! He says he can't believe their cleaning process (looks to be a rotary flailing device) can get through all the build-up and restore the pipe to the original diameter.

    from the reading I've done here, it looks like rootx may be the most viable solution. I really don't want to have the whole thing replaced. Even though it's a straight run under the slab of say 40' or so, busting up the concrete and going through 3 walls is not something I want to do.

    What say you professionals?

    Bill
    Bill

  • #2
    Re: How are the relining processes?

    bill about 5 years ago i invested in nuflow. they are a canadian company. i sat on it for a couple of years and joey made a few calls and got my deposit back.

    a sewer reline is only as good as the host pipe. meaning if the line is not properly cleaned and joints properly aligned, the liner will mirror these defects.

    now trenchless/ pipe bursting will actually give you brand new pipe from point "a" to point "b".

    this is the process i use and it's literally bullet proof. with either the liner or trenchless/ pipeburst, you want a line without tees/ connections of other fixtures. typically on an outside sewer, there is no other tee connections.

    are they trying to sell you a reline of all your pipes?

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How are the relining processes?

      If it's one thing I've read here it's the frequent mention of the foaming root product that is used immediately after properly snaking the line.It has been said by many here that this procedure will get some at the very least 6 months,closer to a year or more for others of trouble free drainage.I wonder why yours are growing so rapidly into the system.
      Last edited by drtyhands; 02-16-2008, 06:04 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How are the relining processes?

        Originally posted by Cheenist View Post
        Until the recent rains, the plumber has been snaking the drain at about 6 week intervals, and pulling out a 4-6 foot wad of roots nearly as big around as your wrist. We're amazed at how quickly they come back. So, I'm looking at the best way to cure the problem.
        Bill
        bill are you sure that they have cleaned the line properly?

        i have never had to clean a properly cleaned line every 6 weeks.

        and i can tell you this, roots don't grow back in 6 weeks to that extent.

        a cut root will develop a sap. sort of like a scab on it like when we get cut. it takes approx. 4-6 weeks for the sap to break off and the root to start regrowing again.

        i know you have videoed the line twice. but please review the tape and check the footage of where the roots are. this is where you want to concentrate your cleaning.

        they are making a video or dvd of the line i hope.

        please post some photos of the roots and maybe a video link if possible. i have had a couple of new customers email me their video. i don't know how to do it, but i know there are people here that know how to stream a video or you tube it.

        rick.

        don't spend big money on it until you have some answers. just doesn't sound right.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How are the relining processes?

          First of all, Rick and drtyhands, thank you for your responses.

          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK
          bill are you sure that they have cleaned the line properly?

          i have never had to clean a properly cleaned line every 6 weeks.

          and i can tell you this, roots don't grow back in 6 weeks to that extent.

          a cut root will develop a sap. sort of like a scab on it like when we get cut. it takes approx. 4-6 weeks for the sap to break off and the root to start regrowing again.

          i know you have videoed the line twice. but please review the tape and check the footage of where the roots are. this is where you want to concentrate your cleaning.

          they are making a video or dvd of the line i hope.

          please post some photos of the roots and maybe a video link if possible. i have had a couple of new customers email me their video. i don't know how to do it, but i know there are people here that know how to stream a video or you tube it.

          rick.

          don't spend big money on it until you have some answers. just doesn't sound right.
          Rick, I don't believe the drain is being cleaned as well as it could be. The plumber says he wants to replace the buried property clean-out, and make it accessible from the top of the ground so that he can run a 4" blade and cut more roots from there out to the main in the middle of the street. Right now, he has to go through the 3" ABS 2-way c/o he installed earlier. Some of the roots are at the top of the vertical drop, and hard to get at, and he usually has a bit of trouble getting the snake to make the turn.

          I do have a video of the first time, this was made by a friend of his that has the nice Rigid set-up with color and self leveling and DVD. I will try dusting off my geek skills and post the whole vid, or at least some stills from it. Later, my plumber picked up a used Rigid without the bells and whistles, but it still worked pretty well.

          Originally posted by drtyhands
          If it's one thing I've read here it's the frequent mention of the foaming root product that is used immediately after properly snaking the line.It has been said by many here that this procedure will get some at the very least 6 months,closer to a year or more for others of trouble free drainage.I wonder why yours are growing so rapidly into the system.
          I suspect it's as Rick says, that all the roots aren't being cleaned out. It appears fron the Rootx site that only plumbers can get the stuff. I wonder if the plumbing contractors would sell me the product. I suspect not. Can it be all that hard to use? Rick posted the amount needed. (Plus a little more! )

          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK
          bill about 5 years ago i invested in nuflow. they are a canadian company. i sat on it for a couple of years and joey made a few calls and got my deposit back.

          a sewer reline is only as good as the host pipe. meaning if the line is not properly cleaned and joints properly aligned, the liner will mirror these defects.

          now trenchless/ pipe bursting will actually give you brand new pipe from point "a" to point "b".

          this is the process i use and it's literally bullet proof. with either the liner or trenchless/ pipeburst, you want a line without tees/ connections of other fixtures. typically on an outside sewer, there is no other tee connections.

          are they trying to sell you a reline of all your pipes?

          rick.
          Rick, I'm curious as to why that didn't work out for you. There are about 3 companies I've found here in the San Diego area that sell the service. I haven't talked to any of them yet, just trying to hear about it from un-biased folks.

          Thinking about it, I can't see how you could re-line a sewer with the vents from the roof, laundry drain (which is in the kitchen, and goes into the sewer from the top, not approaching from the side), the toilet sitting on top of the main, and the tub and sink off to the side. It seems to me that you'd have to dig up the whole mess and replace it all to get a truly new system, by as I said, I'm a machinist, not a plumber! Amazingly, the old cast iron pipe is still in pretty good shape. It looks straight, and not busted up.
          Last edited by Cheenist; 02-16-2008, 05:23 PM.
          Bill

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How are the relining processes?

            Bill sounds like your happy with your plumber.See if you can get him to snake and video immediately after.Within two hours before the sap seals the root tips in the drain.This is the most effective use of Root-X.You'll have to wait two weeks after that for the root tips to put their feelers through the sap to draw the chemical if you miss the two hour window.I've learned this from the drain experts here,I don't even own a snake.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How are the relining processes?

              drtyhands, He is a good guy, and doesn't try to rip me off. He will squeeze me into his schedule on short notice, and I always give him a tip.

              I was able to capture some stills from the DVD of the drain. These were taken about two weeks after snaking. Some of the pics are where the pipe goes from vertical to horizontal, and hard to get at with the snake. The first one is under the house, and the rest are toward the street. The camera guy told me that the 20 Ft. and beyond are past the curb, under the street.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Cheenist; 02-16-2008, 07:06 PM.
              Bill

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How are the relining processes?

                here are th rest of the pics.
                Attached Files
                Bill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How are the relining processes?

                  That is the extent of your problems and you are worried???

                  That sewer looks great compared to about 90% of the ones I see on a daily basis.

                  You have problems but I only see 2 that are bad, and to tell you the truth,they aren't even that bad.

                  If you are looking to stay in the house for the rest of your life, I would recommend a Permaliner, have them dig at the 6 x 4 and line both the 6" and the 4", no need to pipe burst the 4" section.

                  On the cast section, it looks good, if you wish, you can have this section lined also.

                  You do not to be in a hurry to get the liner installed, your line is not in very bad condition.

                  Once you have stoppages every 2-4 months, then is a good time to line. Keep your video for reference. Lines to collapse, I have seen this a few times, but yours is not in that type of condition. It will be in the future, but not for many more years.
                  sigpic

                  Robert

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How are the relining processes?

                    Originally posted by westcoastplumber View Post
                    That is the extent of your problems and you are worried???

                    That sewer looks great compared to about 90% of the ones I see on a daily basis.

                    You have problems but I only see 2 that are bad, and to tell you the truth,they aren't even that bad.

                    If you are looking to stay in the house for the rest of your life, I would recommend a Permaliner, have them dig at the 6 x 4 and line both the 6" and the 4", no need to pipe burst the 4" section.

                    On the cast section, it looks good, if you wish, you can have this section lined also.

                    You do not to be in a hurry to get the liner installed, your line is not in very bad condition.

                    Once you have stoppages every 2-4 months, then is a good time to line. Keep your video for reference. Lines to collapse, I have seen this a few times, but yours is not in that type of condition. It will be in the future, but not for many more years.
                    Robert, as I said, this drain had been cleaned about two weeks before the video. Right now, with all the recent rains in SoCal, the ground is wet, and the backups have not happened since the last cleaning, which was the first part of December. When it's the dry season, it's a different story. I don't water the yard much, and the roots become more invasive looking for water. After this video in July, the stoppages were happening at roughly six week intervals, give or take a week. That's too much. I would at least like to get it to once a year! Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated.
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How are the relining processes?

                      Maybe Root-x is the way to go. I am sure some more guys will chime in on this at some point.

                      BTW.. nice pics. Love seeing images... really ads to the description. BTW... what did you use to get your screen captures off the dvd. Windows typically blocks screen capture of any video displayed on the screen. I usually have to import it into something to get screen caps.

                      Welcome to the forum,

                      Josh

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How are the relining processes?

                        Six week intervals in beyond my experience....so far beyond I question the quality of the cleaning. A 4-6 foot wad as big as your wrist???!!! Every 4-6 weeks???!!! Either he didn't get them all at first (or second) or WOW do your roots grow.

                        Why not try Rootx? I've had good experiences with it. It is very cheap compared to your other options so I'd give it a try. Get your guy to call Rootx and order a 4 lb jug of it. I buy it in cases and don't know if they'll sell just one jug. 2 lb is good for 50'. 4lb for 100'. Good for a year per the literature, I find for several years in this area, maybe less than a year with your supercharged roots. It's easy to apply, but you must be diligent about a few things for it to be effective. If they will only sell you a case, PM me and I'll sell you a jug.

                        Also, I agree with earlier statements your line looks great except for the roots and they don't look bad.

                        I dont reline so can't comment much except to say I've seen it done with success. Questions about blocking vents and lines from fixtures dropping in are well founded, but they reline mains around here and cut the services back in after so the same might be done on a smaller scale under your slab... whoever is doing it for you will know what they can do and what they can't. Can't comment at all for bursting.
                        This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How are the relining processes?

                          Originally posted by Josh View Post
                          Maybe Root-x is the way to go. I am sure some more guys will chime in on this at some point.

                          BTW.. nice pics. Love seeing images... really ads to the description. BTW... what did you use to get your screen captures off the dvd. Windows typically blocks screen capture of any video displayed on the screen. I usually have to import it into something to get screen caps.

                          Welcome to the forum,

                          Josh
                          Thanks, Josh

                          I used Power DVD software that came in a bundle with a computer I bought a few years back. You can download a trial copy, and it can be purchased for $49, $59 or $69, depending on what you want. There may be some free download that may do the job, I haven't looked.

                          You're right, I tried the old screen capture trick, and got a black jpeg. The version of Power DVD I have, has a VCR-like interface that has a pause button, and a camera icon that you can take "snapshots" with.

                          [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Bill/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Bill/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/IMG]
                          Attached Files
                          Bill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How are the relining processes?

                            Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                            Six week intervals in beyond my experience....so far beyond I question the quality of the cleaning. A 4-6 foot wad as big as your wrist???!!! Every 4-6 weeks???!!! Either he didn't get them all at first (or second) or WOW do your roots grow.

                            Why not try Rootx? I've had good experiences with it. It is very cheap compared to your other options so I'd give it a try. Get your guy to call Rootx and order a 4 lb jug of it. I buy it in cases and don't know if they'll sell just one jug. 2 lb is good for 50'. 4lb for 100'. Good for a year per the literature, I find for several years in this area, maybe less than a year with your supercharged roots. It's easy to apply, but you must be diligent about a few things for it to be effective. If they will only sell you a case, PM me and I'll sell you a jug.

                            Also, I agree with earlier statements your line looks great except for the roots and they don't look bad.

                            Edit: For some reason, I'm having trouble attaching a jpeg.

                            I dont reline so can't comment much except to say I've seen it done with success. Questions about blocking vents and lines from fixtures dropping in are well founded, but they reline mains around here and cut the services back in after so the same might be done on a smaller scale under your slab... whoever is doing it for you will know what they can do and what they can't. Can't comment at all for bursting.
                            Hey thanks for the offer. I haven't tried to buy Root-x from a local business, and I'm not sure they'd sell it to me, but maybe my plumber will get some for me. I need to have him over and cut whatever's there and apply it right away.

                            Not all the roots he's pulled out were as big as that, but they were bad enough that they get blocked with paper and cause back-ups. These are long stringy roots, with some woody ones approx 1/4" in diameter. He is astounded that they can grow that fast. In seeing you folks' comments, I don't think he's getting them all either. I'll post a pic from some time last year, I can't remember how long interval was when he pulled this one out.

                            I hope that ficus tree in the background ain't the culprit. You can see where it's lifted the wall and the driveway. But then why would it not go for THEIR sewer?
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Cheenist; 02-17-2008, 10:24 AM.
                            Bill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How are the relining processes?

                              Bill, thanks for the pictures. this is what we all like to see to properly diagnose the issues.

                              as all have already said, your roots are nothing and the pipe is in good alignment.

                              the real issue is the 3'' 2 way c/o. you have a combination of 4'' pipe and 6'' at sidewalk to city saddle. or at least that what we have just north of you.

                              a good jetter will easily clean this up to a perfect system. how long will it last without root treatment is really up to how fast your roots can grow back.

                              it's very good that you have the distance on your dvd. this is where i would concentrate my jetter or a set of cutters.

                              my advise is to install a proper 4'' twin riser clean out. i see very little wrong with the cast/ reverse direction. but if you need a reverse cleaning this would be the time to do it.

                              once the c/o is installed. then it will be simple to guide my cutters to the proper distance and work the roots. or a jetter with a warthog can cut this without an issue.

                              of course you can install the rootx and give that a shot. it doesn't happen overnight, but will kill immediately. decomposing does take time.

                              overall it's no where as bad as you originally described.

                              p.s. joey and i have an annual pass to your zoo and wild animal park. we were there 3 weeks ago

                              my k-60 can easily be stashed in my overnight bag and joey will never know

                              my jetter might be ruff as she will think a trailer is tailgating all the way from los angeles

                              at this point, rootx is the cheapest fix. 4'' twin riser c/o is the next best solution. lining is the most expensive option and at this point, you're not there yet.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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