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  • #31
    Re: Pex Re-pipe

    Originally posted by proplumb View Post
    i do a tonn of renos latley and allot are from the 60's in copper and the lines are great. i8 just went to one yesterday with cpvc, which is really rare here. i touched it whil leaning over to look up to see how the lines were run and it all fell apart, live of coarse. who new abs glue wouldn't work on pvc...oh that's right people who can read
    I'm assuming you mean it fell apart from the wrong solvent.
    I've had the "debate" over proper solvents on a few occasions.

    I've heard my share of handyman/DIYers say ABS solvent is "just fine" with CPVC....as Alex Trebec would say "Oooo sorry, thats incorrect!".

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    • #32
      Re: Pex Re-pipe

      Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
      I was watching Ask This old House and they did a spotlight on a repiping company I think that was in SC. The company does repipes only in CPVC. I personally would take quest over CPVC. Almost.
      I LIKE QEST..........Replacing it payed for my house. I did mobile home repipes for 5 years, all a part of the class action lawsuit back then. We either did it in CPVC (lick and stick) or copper, homeowners choice. Never had a problem with cpvc, seemed to be a good product, but not in my house. I've done pex, wirsbo, rehau, but I'm old school, feel better using copper. And thats my two cents.......Rick (TOPR)
      The Other Rick

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      • #33
        Re: Pex Re-pipe

        I've done pex, wirsbo, rehau, but I'm old school, feel better using copper. And thats my two cents.......Rick

        But you use cpvc.?
        sigpic

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        • #34
          Re: Pex Re-pipe

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
          I've done pex, wirsbo, rehau, but I'm old school, feel better using copper. And thats my two cents.......Rick

          But you use cpvc.?

          I haven't used cpvc since I stopped doing mobile repipes years ago, and even then, it wasn't my decision as to what material to use. Rick
          The Other Rick

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          • #35
            Once again, my rant

            Been watching the infiltration of plastic water line systems for years

            Been watching the class action lawsuits slowly show up

            Been watching the users of plastic water line systems minimize these issues

            OR

            showboat/glamorize the use of >>>this better product<<< to stand away/distance themselves from the lesser product

            Been trolling internet plumbing forums as a member, a moderator, an administrator and the influx of newer products along with the outgoing of the "former" products that involved everything from property damage to high priced lawyers to people losing their livelihood, their homes as a result of unexpected spending

            because

            they entrusted a plumber to put a product in their home and in the midst of this equation the plumber saw monetary reward by fast easy and cheap.

            That's you, never me.

            Products, new products especially are a risk to themselves for the intial introduction into the market, the varying situations that this product ends up in that cannot be replicated in lab testing, ever.


            The fact that this product has been used in Europe and other countries far away from the United States is a relevant excuse or justification of why it's good is utter bullshit.

            Simple research will provide factual information that the chlorine levels in the United States compared to other countries is substantially higher given the dirty water syndrome that's so common here in the states.

            What works in their back yard does not mean it works in my back yard.

            A car in Florida has a greater value than a car in Kentucky because the lack of exposure in florida, meaning a car exposed to high levels of road salt in kentucky will not be the same as a car in florida that's never seen salt at all in that concentration.

            One will have rust, one won't, or minimal at best given the number of years old.


            We've went from products that took skill time and effort to products that

            can't see the light of day
            can't rub a sharp edge
            is a victim of a mouse's small teeth
            has the highest margin of error in workmanship
            has the most unsightly look in finished product

            Put it underground and ground contamination can seep right through this piping.

            Doesn't matter if it's here to stay, doesn't mean I'm using it. I'll stay old school; there's enough piping systems out there to keep me gainfully employed till I turn my last wrench.

            Given the reported and factual track history of plastic piping systems and their unlikely considerations involving the haphazards they provide,

            there is no doubt that in the lines of pex piping that there are other soon to be failures slowly turning the curve and heading for home, they just haven't seen enough road miles yet to become the discovery chapter.........yet.

            FFS, even when it comes to electricians running romex, they at least run their product with due consideration of stapling and supporting the product to where it looks uniform and professional.

            Industry has taken the simplicity of what unlicensed workers in the production of mobile homes who spend maybe 2 hours plumbing a trailer, in same due fashion, then changing the product and putting this simplicity in the hands of the public to do in the same fashion in permanent dwellings and structures.


            These new homes that are piped with gas-tite and pex, cpvc is disturbing to say the least.

            It's almost like I want to pull the siding up on the house and see if there is wheels underneath it.

            I enjoy the satisfaction my old school thinking provides me in the lines of reputation, reliability and the insurance policy it builds without an insurance company involved.

            What plastic users refuse to admit in print or in person that it's the point A and point B, not what's inbetween, has never changed from the fittings and workup. Those necessary functions will never change as they have to be durable.

            We all know how we bash an all plastic shutoff, now think of a all PEX shutoff. NO brass, nothing, all plastic.

            Glamorize that it won't freeze and bust? Great. You just knocked yourself out of job when it gets cold. The first line of thinking is "why is the piping being subjected to freezing in the first place" and take the notion that apparently the plumber or someone didn't do their job right initially.

            Piping only freezes because someone didn't put it in the right place to begin with. That's not the pipes fault. Installer error all the way.



            Tell me if you believe me


            I've never had a plastic part break off in my hand
            I've never had a customer call me with a broken plastic part
            I've never seen a plastic part affected by temperature variance
            I've never seen a plastic part affected by age

            Plastic is the king of job security
            The guarantee of someone having a job
            The sure fire money maker because it's cheap and easy to make and produce
            The guarantee that sooner than later, it's replacement give the full circle to the meaning why it was used.

            Make a all plastic toilet, why the need for a big heavy porcelain one?
            How about a all plastic water heater? Marathon comes to mind, why didn't they dominate the market?

            How about a all plastic faucet? Oh wait, we got that already, it's called JUNK.

            We've moved from threaded to sweat

            sweat to glue

            now glue to 0-ring


            What's next? Peel and stick plumbing? Given the sheep following the flock, it might just be THE NEXT BEST THING.

            The next best thing has one primary goal; cheaper, the driver of all consumer spending.
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            • #36
              Re: Pex Re-pipe

              Wow, strong rant. Got me thinking though.
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              • #37
                Re: Pex Re-pipe

                Originally posted by Service Guy View Post
                Wow, strong rant. Got me thinking though.



                Yeah, I can get colorful, blame meds.

                That and I should be working right now, had to take a break and relax in print.


                2 service calls that are getting pushed farther and farther into the evening.


                That's it, I'm a



                Why can't I just stay home and watch nascar, eat all day and not worry about next week's schedule?
                Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                • #38
                  Re: Pex Re-pipe

                  Nice essay there, but let me ask you. Are you still piping dwv with hub and spigot Cast iron.? If not, how about copper dwv.? How about fabricating your own lead drum traps.? flashing your roof penetrations with lead and tar.? How about piping domestic water with galvanized and brass. Better yet piping domestic water with lead.? Still installing galvanized s traps under lavs and kitchen sinks.? How about brass or galvanized drum traps.? Pipes a single stack c.i. dwv single vent system lately.?
                  When you speak of class action law suits it is interesting to read through them. The vast majority of suits brought were dropped due to the failure being caused by faulty installation, not product. In fact as bad as it was even poly butelyne got a bad rap because 90% of the failures were the acetyl fittings and aluminum rings. Not to mention bone heads that would leave the rolls outside in the sunlight for weeks or even months at a time because they were too damn lazy to read the instructions.
                  Next question. How much new construction work do you do. And if you do a lot, how are you able to bid competitivly unless everyone else is also bidding copper.?
                  In our area no one is installing copper in new construction. It's all pex. I know I will never convince you and that's fine. Maybe you will be proven correct 25 years down the road, but I can tell you that time, technology, and the plumbing trade marches on.
                  sigpic

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                  • #39
                    Re: Pex Re-pipe

                    TOPDAWG,

                    FlowGuard Flex is a 3-layer PEX pipe that resists UV and chlorine attack. FlowGuard Bendable is a 3-layer CPVC/ALUMINUM/CPVC pipe, as you said, good for under slab.

                    The FlowGuard Gold reps have a good point. Compare other CPVC brands to FlowGuard Gold and see the difference in performance. The FlowGuard Gold folks invented CPVC over 40 years ago, and the brand is the most widely accepted in the industry.

                    Just throwin' this out there.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Pex Re-pipe

                      TOPDAWG,

                      FlowGuard Flex is a 3-layer PEX pipe that resists UV and chlorine attack. FlowGuard Bendable is a 3-layer CPVC/ALUMINUM/CPVC pipe, as you said, good for underground applications.

                      The FlowGuard Gold reps have a good point. Compare other CPVC brands to FlowGuard Gold and see the difference in performance. The FlowGuard Gold folks invented CPVC over 40 years ago, and the brand is the most widely accepted in the industry.

                      Just throwin' this out there. I've been doin' this since 1974.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Pex Re-pipe

                        DUNBAR

                        Everything you say about marketing is true... and I'm a plastics guy. There is so much B.S. out there about plastic piping that originates from both metal heads and plastic heads. It's no wonder why you are so suspect, yet passionate. You take pride in your work, and the years that you've invested into your trade. You are dead-on about the chlorine impact on PEX when comparing Europe to U.S. standards. This information gets spread under the carpet here. You keep abreast of potential shortfalls. I wish that everyone would.

                        If you ever do use PEX, be sure to read the fine print in the warranty, pertaining to UV exposure, because UV exposure directly relates to chlorine attack, which directly relates to PEX performance. Both PEX and CPVC are here to stay, and we all should know as much as we can about these piping materials.

                        I respect your passion and pride.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Pex Re-pipe

                          DUNBAR,

                          Go a step further and try IndyCar.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Pex Re-pipe

                            Aaron91

                            Excellent point.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Pex Re-pipe

                              DO you realize how much of that product you mention still operates in today's plumbing systems with a 30 to 70 year life, that hospitals and schools are still spec'd with that same product to this very day?

                              What's your point, Other than the fact you're basing progression of this trade without forethought that the materials we put in our hands today is not of the same quality. Cast Iron has a long life whether you'll


                              BULLSHIT


                              That's why every service call that comes into my office for a water main break that's plastic was all installer error..................WRONG


                              Blue-MAX, remember that? Class action, breaks down over time, you're not going to blame that on installer error, it's proven it was a bad product.

                              PB was not a "dropped" lawsuit, it went it's full course and there is STILL victims of this product today. Why am I educating you when you are the educator?????


                              Did you forget the common dip tube failure in all water heaters because someone with a plastic point of view didn't check the resin's susceptability?

                              DO you know how many people unknowingly missed that damn class action lawsuit given the small window of opportunity to get involved and get compensation?

                              DO you want to know how many times a year I pulled water heaters out, or diagnose by troubleshooting as a master plumber when no hot water is prevalent or white chards of plastic are floating through the piping system, that it directly had to do with someone who thinks plastic is without failure?





                              How about the Kitec PEX, has to do with dezincification of the brass fittings along with the leaching of that piping over the fittings that's closing those up. Are you a Las Vegas plumber that lost his livelihood because he followed the flock because "nobody's bidding with copper, copper is bad." pppffffttt.



                              And what is the chemical composition of "acetyl" .....hrmmmm
                              And tell us how many types of "rings" that involve with pex, how many are subject to criticism because some are working, some are not, some are already discontinued because "some" aren't holding to their reliability that a few song birds are singing.



                              Those "boneheads" are those plumbing supply houses that leave all plastic piping without cover in an open yard that consider the movement/sales of their piping the answer to that consideration. It's not plausible and if you're old enough to remember the days of prohibiton where you had to sneak alcohol or hide it bringing it into an establishment........you get the point.

                              Now......you're going to tell me that you've never seen a basement with windows in it, that now you have to do a shield to protect this piping from the UV rays that slowly break down this plastic product. I don't EVER recall a black iron gas line wilting in the sunlight, nor a copper pipe a tender delicacy to the common rodent. I don't buy the logic it's better, never will.




                              None, But I did it for years, there's my credentials. Also, I work on these once "new" plumbing systems and watch the slow degradation of what a production plumber throws in the walls in a 1/3 of the time. The housing market is now

                              NOW

                              being subjective to this crime wave of plastic products in a home, the real estate agents along with the general populus is offering "copper" piped homes as a plus. HAHAAAAAAHAAA!~!!!

                              Why? Because of the consistent habitual repetitive problems that coexist with a plumber that takes shortcuts for profit margins.



                              25 years..........and how many lawsuits? Zurn is not in your short term memory with what they are experiencing in the terms "class action lawsuit"?

                              It's always the fittings, never the pipe.

                              Two guys go and rob a bank, one guy sits in the car and the other goes and shoots up the employees.

                              Guy in the car didn't kill no one

                              He just drove the killer to and from the scene of the crime.


                              You and everyone else should figure out that analogy quite well.


                              There's too many plastic parts/fittings/pipes I've had in my hands for anyone, anywhere on the internet and to my ugly mug to tell me that what is real and realistic is not, that it's always the user who installed it.

                              You might be distorting the minds of your students with that logic but you'll never pass that one on me.

                              Plastic equates to more and more individuals who don't know the profession of plumbing to work with it, install it incorrectly and you favor this?




                              Because some of us don't understand that the parts we carry in pieces in our hands are usually plastic when we enter the supply house because there is NO plastic that can NOT stand the test of time and NOT change it's physical properties, mainly turning hard as glass and must be treated as such when it becomes, this fragile state.


                              Copper galvanized and cast iron is not fragile when it goes bad, when it breaks it's gradual and slow coming, not abrupt. In all of those equations it took YEARS for it to happen, lots of years.

                              What's great for all you historians out there?

                              History always repeats itself. At one time the brown bag was OH so horrible at the grocery store because it's bad bad bad! and those chainsaws running in the forest are choking our children's throats......stop it you're killing our childreeeeeeeeeen!!

                              Now, 25* years later the enviormentalists are studying this "new and improved" product called plastic and they are watching what they thought thin plastic would do, isn't.

                              It's not degrading like once thought.

                              Now, you have all these homes that are getting loaded with siding, plastic water and drain lines, a chemical concoction when a fire starts.

                              Any firemen on this site? You know what they call a house on fire that's sided with plastic vinyl siding?

                              A damn propane gas bomb given it's unstable properties when it's burning.


                              We've went from products that people literally steal for it's value, to products that cannot be reused which indirectly adds to the big picture of waste and refuse.

                              This will turn full circle, history always repeats itself just like I just did.

                              NH I'm someone who pays attention to what's in my hands and employs me. Reputation is #1, Plastic is #2, Hacks are #3.

                              The teacher isn't always right and can be proven wrong on occaision.

                              [/quote]

                              Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post
                              DUNBAR

                              .

                              I know it's here to stay, I know it's not leaving.

                              I'm not suspect to any of this; this stuff is in my hands on a weekly basis from failure, it's being installed by "others" that have no business doing plumbing, this introduces something that wasn't found or even heard of when the plumbing systems were of grave difficulty to install and took more skills than a chimp with a crimper.


                              There was never any fine print to the durable goods and materials I've used for years, I certainly am not going to read fine print to any product that has so many considerations.

                              I've heard excuses like the "installers hands had oil and dirt on them, thus caused the failure"

                              or "installer had a roll of pex in his truck on march 4th 2004 and didn't cover the pex in his bed of his pickup, therefore we cannot pay this claim because the pipe was exposed to sunlight." What???!!!



                              Isn't plastic supposed to be the hardest product to remove from the earth's surface due to it's inability to decompose? Have we lost our way of recycling to protect and reuse products that once served a good life?

                              I don't buy the rollercoaster spaghetti trip. I'm watching this history of this piping unfold like a porn movie with no plot. (okay sometimes that's not a bad thing, porn that is)

                              I hope I stand alone on my thinking, I bet I have the cleanest bill of health regarding liability of what I stand behind to prove it over the long haul that some products prove a longer history of reliability than others, and plastic is not one of them. You like Europe? Go to europe and spend your days supporting their clean/minimal chlorine ladened water. The water here has to be chlorinated given how dirty it really is. Otherwise there wouldn't be such a need for that potent disinfectant to be so commonly found in potable water systems in the United States.



                              Attachment


                              * Denotes reference to time span

                              BOLD print used without permission from DuckButter.

                              sorry!
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 03-17-2008, 09:44 PM.
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                              • #45
                                Re: Pex Re-pipe

                                Holy long post batman! Well said Dunbar as usual. Don't you have to take into the account of water quality affecting copper though? My parents live in Georgia and had to get a repipe after 20 years do to pinhole leaks in the copper. I hate cpvc but admit it last longer in their region.
                                Buy cheap, buy twice.

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