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  • #46
    Re: Pex Re-pipe

    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
    Holy long post batman! Well said Dunbar as usual. Don't you have to take into the account of water quality affecting copper though? My parents live in Georgia and had to get a repipe after 20 years do to pinhole leaks in the copper. I hate cpvc but admit it last longer in their region.

    I'll pose a few questions at you in regards to parents situation:


    At one time, that copper was inspected and approved to be used in that area, then "something" in regards to water quality started to attack it.

    That means ph levels were off one way or another, and that's not just limited to just that copper water line, that means that aggressive PH is causing erosion to everything that water comes in contact with.


    Why didn't the city water plant correct the problem before serving undo hardship on the property owners by introducting acid neutralizers? Why? It cost a lot of money and they knew it would be a slow progression.

    Copper pinholing and erosion is caused by two key scenarios:

    Bad water

    or

    Electrical problems non-related to it's intended use.


    You don't fix heartburn burning the edge of your throat by sticking a plastic liner down your throat,

    you take a pill *acid neutralizer* or fix the core problem *surgery* to correct what can be an ongoing slow destruction of a once good product. *esophagus*

    Plastic pipe falls short of reliability due to temperature variances, everywhere

    Copper pipe falls short of reliability due to geographical, limited areas where public water systems refuse to correct a core problem.

    Why else would Cincinnati have a large public water system along with copper water line systems pushing 70 years without any signs of destruction?

    NONE. Same goes for my area, my water service was installed in 1959. I wasn't even born yet FFS. No leaks, no chance of expanding and contracting on a DAILY basis like all plastic products fall victim to.....and I'm not calling someone every 5-15 years to replace it because I didn't think beyond my nose that spending more money for a better product, all-around proves to be a better choice when it comes to durable goods.


    If your state or area has acidic ground or ph levels that are horrible on metals, then copper/galvanized is not for you. You can't help your situation given what's piped to you and that sucks. You can spend 100's if not 1000's and have your own science experiment in the basement to fix the problem yourself.....


    but the real cheat is covering the problem up and running a pipe with known failures to hide the core problem.


    We as plumbers should not be hiding anything.
    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Pex Re-pipe

      http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/sho...=pinhole+leaks

      This was a thread I started awhile back.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Pex Re-pipe

        DUNBAR,

        I spoke fact. Meant no harm. Didn't criticize you, obviously. I'm new here. I'm an expert in plumbing systems, both plastic and metal. Sorry to have offended you however I did.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Pex Re-pipe

          Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post
          I'm an expert in plumbing systems, both plastic and metal.
          Not to start any ****, but are you a plumber?
          Proud To Be Union!!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Pex Re-pipe

            DUNBAR,

            I just re-read your passionate post. Please explain "Hack".

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Pex Re-pipe

              Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post
              DUNBAR,

              I spoke fact. Meant no harm. Didn't criticize you, obviously. I'm new here. I'm an expert in plumbing systems, both plastic and metal. Sorry to have offended you however I did.
              Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post
              DUNBAR,

              I just re-read your passionate post. Please explain "Hack".


              I don't think anyone has criticized me in this thread, nobody. My opinion is no more important than anyone elses here, ever. I just empathize my statements when I'm recalling all the thought processes that brought me to print them.


              "Hack" is anyone that runs to a hardware or big box store that takes the task at hand to do something without prior knowledge of what they're working on, not fully knowing or understanding of the dangers and the numerous situations that allows you to comprehend why and how what you have in your hands works.

              Because it is easy doesn't always hold weight to the high number of errors created in such designs by people who think that now that it's so easy a caveman can do it, it must be "okay" for me to do it. That's simply not true.


              I already know what side of the equation you're on in this matter and the more that people buy your product, the more your job is secure and that's an understatement.

              It keeps me employed just as much as you, but that doesnt mean I'll ever agree that it's right.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Pex Re-pipe

                Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/sho...=pinhole+leaks

                This was a thread I started awhile back.

                Here I thought that thread was going to be huge~~!


                Looked like a bashing/who's gonna whip some ***/ need more info thread!

                Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Pex Re-pipe

                  Plastic head, you're a welcome addition to the forum, I'm sure you'll have loads of enlightening info...there is one point of contention though...
                  You work in plastics, which means you work for a specific manufacturer...my concern is whether there might be bias there...time tells all.

                  Dunbar...ease up old buddy.

                  You, me and numerous other members have the luxury of turning away work we don't want to take on when the customer is giving us red flags with pricing.
                  NhMaster, and numerous others in this forum don't get that luxury, they have mouths to feed..a crew that depends on them for a livelyhood.
                  It's one thing to line up work for myself, I can't imagine having to keep insurance, bennies & a payroll for a crew in a world that allows all but garden hose with developers & GC's that have not one concern with what will happen with the piping in 5 years.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Pex Re-pipe

                    Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post
                    TOPDAWG,

                    FlowGuard Flex is a 3-layer PEX pipe that resists UV and chlorine attack. FlowGuard Bendable is a 3-layer CPVC/ALUMINUM/CPVC pipe, as you said, good for underground applications.

                    The FlowGuard Gold reps have a good point. Compare other CPVC brands to FlowGuard Gold and see the difference in performance. The FlowGuard Gold folks invented CPVC over 40 years ago, and the brand is the most widely accepted in the industry.

                    Just throwin' this out there. I've been doin' this since 1974.
                    Confession of a momentary lapse in judgement -
                    Using Flowguard for a fixture addition, realizing I'd under ordered & was not going to finish with what I had that day...ran out to HD because the supply was closed and <gulp> bought their CPVC...sssshhhh, don't tell these guys I did that.

                    I cut it once and it broke with my plastic cutter, tried it again and got another bad cut.
                    After the third time, I put a cap on my work and bit the bullet till the supply was open the next day.

                    I have very little experience with old CPVC, but at least one member here says it makes no difference what name, the stuff gets brittle in a relatively small amount of time...be interested in seeing any documentation you might be able to produce regarding Flowguards performance over time vs other names.

                    Oh, that was one of only two jobs I've ever done with FLowguard, of I've been able to avoid cheapo jobs that won't allow me to price for copper....so far.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Pex Re-pipe

                      Duck,

                      Thanks for welcoming me to this group. Trust me, although I've been in plastics for 34 years, each and every one of these years has been devoted to teaching. In the past, plastic piping was an 'alternative' choice, and I had to convince specifying engineers to choose plastic piping. Today, with the cost of metals, engineers, architects and owners are scrambling to learn about plastic piping. Please understand this. I've devoted my entire working life to plastic piping. I want to leave something substantial behind when I leave the industry. That is, what I said in 1974 is the same that I'm saying today. Like then, today there exists inferior products. I know the scientific differences, and I'll quit before I steer an engineer in a way that is detrimental to his signature on the product specification. I teach engineers, contractors, wholesalers and rep agencies. I get in the ditch with the contractors. I've heard all of the B.S. from everyone, including those in my industry. It is no wonder that metal heads don't trust plastic heads. I trust metal heads because I have the facts to talk about. No B.S. Accept the facts, or don't accept them. I've done metal, having worked for a major metal valve and fitting manufacturer. I know metal, and the metal manufacturers are focusing on plastics. I'm on this website to answer questions. Thus far, I've seen the usual myths. Heck, keep using copper if that is macho. But if plastics come into play, I'll dive in to answer questions as an expert. I'll tell you what is fact and what is fiction, based upon data, as best I can. No B.S. I'm too old for that, and am long beyond hearing the same negative crap about plastic pipe breaking, splitting, falling apart, etc., ad-naseum. There are REASONS why plastic pipe fails. And it isn't ALWAYS because of misinstallation, but... usually is due to MISINFORMATION. Does plastic piping corrode? How about metal piping? That's just for starters.

                      "Cheap Plastic." "Toy Pipe." "Mr, Mattell." I've heard it all. Yet, the Union Pipefitters, over the years, have accepted the reality of plastic piping. The bottom line is that plastic piping is here to stay, and FACTS are what folks should be clamoring for. I am, as are old farts like me, sticking around to provide the facts.

                      You devote your life to something, and you want to leave your work behind, yes? Anyone agree with that?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Pex Re-pipe

                        Originally posted by Plastic Head View Post

                        You devote your life to something, and you want to leave your work behind, yes? Anyone agree with that?

                        Yes. In a way that I knew that I wasn't setting someone up for disaster by my product choice.


                        Since MISINFORMATION is the word you're toting here,

                        explain this picture I put up in 2006

                        http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showpo...28&postcount=2


                        and why you wasn't there with your shop vac while this was happening.


                        If you're an expert, you'll know why that fitting turned a golden yellow, instead of the bright white it first was, snugging that connection up actually felt like it was spring loaded.

                        We know why, it was that plastic stressing into position, that same stressing caused that connection to abruptly blow apart given the 60 pounds of pressure it was holding back.


                        I'll agree that plastic is holding "okay" in the DWV side of the equation as long as it isn't disturbed, I have years around the piping to see it's longevity, and how brittle it can become over a short few years.

                        Female adaptors are illegal in CPVC, what you're looking at is a female adaptor.

                        Those stainless steel flex supplies to toilets are always the same kind of connection that is used in plumbing everyday. I can only guess the reason for this is the fact that most if not all shanks on fill valves are plastic, the plastic to plastic equation is a better match and prevents a plastic thread abnormality when threading to brass in such a coarse thread.

                        If you are the expert, try your best to not post corroded copper, or a deteriorated cast iron stack, let's stay on topic and you have the privilege to start your own thread on why metal piping systems *even though spec'd for so many industrial/commercial applications in this same day and age of time*

                        are the dinosaur being laid to rest by the plastic industry.

                        http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ent=PPV016.jpg
                        http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ent=PPV015.jpg
                        http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ent=PPV014.jpg




                        I took the above pictures about 2 or 3 years ago, can't remember but the event was so spectacular that it was worthy of a picture.


                        So who was misinformed, the customer for buying an all plastic housing for a filter or what you're trying to tell me doesnt exist....


                        Do you know how much damage this caused when it ruptured..
                        Do you know how many hours water ran without anyone knowing..
                        Do you know how much property damage occurred..
                        Do you know how this indirectly caused insurance premium rates to increase..
                        Do you know how this created an instant mold problem for this older couple that couldn't pay the deductible to do a thorough cleanup job
                        Do you know what family heirlooms had the wife balling her eyes out when she realized they were destroyed?

                        This isn't misinformation folks, this is a 3 year old whole house water filter that I'd bet the mfg. would try to say that the guy overtightened the lid given the way the crack sped across to separate.

                        This was a cold water application and the only way it got brittle was because it kept going from room temperature to incoming cold, back and forth and back and forth, physically changing the physical property of that plastic product from the first day it was created down to the last day it was taken out of use, abruptly.

                        If that was a brass housing, this wouldn't be another story thanks to plastic products that fail. I checked the day I loaded that to photobucket, 2003.





                        Do you want to speak with the guy who owned this supply line when it blew apart, thanks to someone who used a brass ferrule who was uneducated to understand that a plastic ferrule prevents the cutting, but doesn't prevent that small section of the tubing to get extremely brittle because it was compressed by the ferrule being tightened to prevent a leak.

                        You don't know how many times I've worked on replacing faucets and these supply tubes snapping off by just barely touching them when I go to remove them, and yes, they have the plastic ferrules on them, installed correctly.

                        Was you there when the ceiling in the living room that was 11' off the ground in a $400,000 home fell down with only the dog in the house.....to do nothing?

                        Remember one, one thing you get out of my words here. Metal piping usually doesn't abruptly blow apart without any forewarning. Ever seen a pinhole in copper flood an entire house?

                        There's a reason PEX like you see above is outlawed for icemaker installations to fridges along with that clear plastic tubing to the fridges. Same goes for dishwashers. The plumber is trying to save a buck not putting copper in, margins we keep hearing is the driving dollar to keep a business lights on, and

                        I'm being called once again for a fridge that loses a water connection right at the solenoid valve because the stiffener wasn't enough, the 1/4" plastic ferrule wasn't enough, the piping slowly turning yellow wasn't enough to give

                        fair warning to the unsuspecting property owner that the fast quick and easy product that replaces that oh so pricey copper, has faults, bad ones at that if you aren't aware of it.

                        Home inspectors will not pass a plastic water line leading to a fridge in my area.

                        Who is misinformed here, the public, or the whole world I'm trying to warn of the dangers of mixing plastic products with water pressure...


                        more pictures are coming, I'm in the field every single day with broken plastic parts to prove it. This will be my collage with you as an expert to explain each and every one of them why what we see is not....real?
                        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Pex Re-pipe

                          So are we to assume that the "product" must assume the liability for faulty installation.? Plastic water filter housings have been in service for well over 20 years, and yes if over tightened the will crack, and the o ring will blow out as well, but who's fault is that.? The manufacturer, or the bone head that did'nt read the directions.? Do you really think copper is fool proof.? Never seen cold soldered or not soldered joints blow out. How about the damaged caused by freezing.? We recently re-piped a million dollar camp up here on Squam Lake that froze and broke on the second floor and pretty much destroyed the whole house.
                          I know you will not be convinced, and certainly new products must be scrutinized carefully. But like it or not, copper piping will very soon be a thing of the past.
                          sigpic

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                          • #58
                            Re: Pex Re-pipe

                            Did the water filter "just break," or was it frozen. If frozen, would brass have had any advantage?

                            I've installed many hundreds of the PB tubes like the ones in the picture, in addition to PEX tubes and "no-burst" supplies, which I've only recently been switching to. The only failure I've ever seen was in a public restroom where it was kicked off - and that could happen to copper, too. (No, I've never used brass ferrules with plastic tubes.)

                            The only time I use plastic nuts on tubes is on toilets - and they come with. For basins and kitchens, I always use brass nuts and toss anything substandard.

                            I think that having a good feel for the correct tightness, that comes with lifetime experience, is the most important factor in having problem-free plumbing. It's one of the reasons that amateurs can never do the work as well as we can.

                            And as I'm writing this, the commentator on MSNBC is talking about having handymen to do work, and her male counterpart is talking about the super who does repairs in his building . . .

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Pex Re-pipe

                              Well, in 35 years I've seen a lot of strange things. That filter housing is not one of them. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it froze, but then again who knows. As for the poly supply line, again it's polybutelyne and I don't know anyone still installing that stuff.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Pex Re-pipe

                                One more passing thought. Because there have undoubtly been plastic products introduced in the past years that have proven unreliable and unsatisfactory is still not a reason to condemn the entire industry. Zurn is a perfect example of a previously flawed product. However the discerning plumbing contractor will hopefully fully research the product before selling and installing it. We install Uponor and Uponor only. Have never had one single failure of ither the product or the fittings in over 10 years. Indeed since dropping some inferior crimp systems that Uponor bought out, Uponor has had virtually zero law suits filed due to product liability and that's world wide. Without pex piping the entire radiant floor heat industry would be dead in the water, or should we go back to installing copper tubing under the concrete. (talk about a nightmare) I'll say it again. You may truley believe that copper is a superior product, and for some applications it is, but plastics are here to stay. Time marches on.

                                Dunbar, did you have a tragic childhood accident involving the plastic monster. Just ribbin you. And know that I really do respect your opinion and your recearch. To each his own. (besides, I'll probably be dead and burried before all the pex i installed goes tits up)
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