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On demand gas heaters

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  • #16
    Re: On demand gas heaters

    Woops, one more thing. Note the delta t (temp rise) it's rated at 50 degrees, which for the southern half of the country is ok. For those of us north of the Mason Dixon line, most of the fall and winter months, 50 degrees is only going to give us 100 degree water. The gpm drops drastically at higher delta t flow rates
    sigpic

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    • #17
      Re: On demand gas heaters

      Wow, Thanks again guys.

      When you say ask the experts you really are asking people in the know.

      I didn't mean to start this over again but really appreciate your thoughts.

      Again when you want to know ask the people in the know.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: On demand gas heaters

        Coincidentally, I got a call two weeks ago regarding a Bosch Aquastar tankless.
        I'd installed this unit two years ago despite hearing they were the worst on the market.
        The customer had already purchased this wonderful piece of machinery based on what the "plumbing guy" at Lowes told him...I tried to get him to exchange it but, if I recall, he was told the sale was final.

        I spent 2 hours looking at this unit trying to figure out why it wouldn't kick on until the flow rate was at least 1.5 gpm, flushed it with vinegar for 1-1/2 hours, took out the flow device and it was clear...checked the blower, shut off the units supply & checked all hot fixtures for backfeed, then shut off ALL hot feeds in the house to eliminate the possibility of cross connection and it still wouldn't work right.
        Finally I got their customer service/tech support on the phone, after waiting 20 minutes on hold on my customers dime.
        They told me it was the flame sensor, that I need to let them mail a new one and replace it.

        Five days later, I replace the electrode...nothing, no improvement...once again I call & wait 20 minutes.
        This time the guy I reach admits the last fella was taking a shot in the dark and that wasn't whats wrong.
        I tell him I think it's the flow detection, thats what I told the first guy...he explicitly denies this and says it's the houses plumbing.
        I thought that was odd, since he hadn't yet asked what I'd done to check for cross connection.

        I explain to him that I'd already checked that by shutting down all hot feeds in the house...he continues to insist that my customer will need to have some plumbing redone.
        He then insists there must be a cross connection in the actual piping, after 2 years it seems odd that a cold water line would suddenly resolder itself to a hot line...all by itself.
        I then ask him, "So, lets say it turns out you're wrong and I wind up repiping his water lines...who pays the bill for that?".
        He then takes a more aggressive tone, "Look, there's nothing wrong with this unit, I don't know what the problem is...the warranty doesn't cover bad piping in the home."
        I asked him if he could just send out a new flow device, he flat out refused, telling me they have never once had a problem with that device...ever.
        Niiiiiccce!
        After running fine for almost two years, it's bad piping in the house.
        So, now my customer is out the money paying me to talk to "some guy" who reads responses from a manual...and it would seem is trained to do all he can to avoid owning responsibility of the warranty.
        The finale, my customer is going to wait for the unit to die, we'll be replacing it with anything but Bosch...period.

        I'm open to you guys experience with these units if anyone thinks of something I may have missed, but I can honestly say I will strongly advise all customers to avoid ALL Bosch products after seeing how they treat their warranty.
        Last edited by DuckButter; 03-29-2008, 02:17 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: On demand gas heaters

          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
          Coincidentally, I got a call two weeks ago regarding a Bosch Aquastar tankless.
          I'd installed this unit two years ago despite hearing they were the worst on the market.
          The customer had already purchased this wonderful piece of machinery based on what the "plumbing guy" at Lowes told him...I tried to get him to exchange it but, if I recall, he was told the sale was final.

          I spent 2 hours looking at this unit trying to figure out why it wouldn't kick on until the flow rate was at least 1.5 gpm, flushed it with vinegar for 1-1/2 hours, took out the flow device and it was clear...checked the blower, shut off the units supply & checked all hot fixtures for backfeed, then shut off ALL hot feeds in the house to eliminate the possibility of cross connection and it still wouldn't work right.
          Finally I got their customer service/tech support on the phone, after waiting 20 minutes on hold on my customers dime.
          They told me it was the flame sensor, that I need to let them mail a new one and replace it.

          Five days later, I replace the electrode...nothing, no improvement...once again I call & wait 20 minutes.
          This time the guy I reach admits the last fella was taking a shot in the dark and that wasn't whats wrong.
          I tell him I think it's the flow detection, thats what I told the first guy...he explicitly denies this and says it's the houses plumbing.
          I thought that was odd, since he hadn't yet asked what I'd done to check for cross connection.

          I explain to him that I'd already checked that by shutting down all hot feeds in the house...he continues to insist that my customer will need to have some plumbing redone.
          He then insists there must be a cross connection in the actual piping, after 2 years it seems odd that a cold water line would suddenly resolder itself to a hot line...all by itself.
          I then ask him, "So, lets say it turns out you're wrong and I wind up repiping his water lines...who pays the bill for that?".
          He then takes a more aggressive tone, "Look, there's nothing wrong with this unit, I don't know what the problem is...the warranty doesn't cover bad piping in the home."
          I asked him if he could just send out a new flow device, he flat out refused, telling me they have never once had a problem with that device...ever.
          Niiiiiccce!
          After running fine for almost two years, it's bad piping in the house.
          So, now my customer is out the money paying me to talk to "some guy" who reads responses from a manual...and it would seem is trained to do all he can to avoid owning responsibility of the warranty.
          The finale, my customer is going to wait for the unit to die, we'll be replacing it with anything but Bosch...period.

          I'm open to you guys experience with these units if anyone thinks of something I may have missed, but I can honestly say I will strongly advise all customers to avoid ALL Bosch products after seeing how they treat their warranty.

          Maybe this will be helpful. http://www.aquastarwaterheater.com/H...2/Default.aspx
          Pete
          Drain Biz
          Articles, Videos, Industry News

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: On demand gas heaters

            Just a thought for those of you like myself that like to look at the long term result. The government offers incentives to HO's to go tankless, along with advertised savings. This is appealing to most. What would happen if everyone in a particular nieghborhood went tankless. Demand would typically come at the same time at everyone's house. Do you think the city gas mains could support the extra 150K BTU at once. What if there was one tankless per bathroom? That could equate to alot of gas for a 2" main.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: On demand gas heaters

              Originally posted by Pete M View Post
              Pete...lol...I really appreciate the help, but I'm sick of looking at that site.
              It's a model 250 SX...I actually copied part of the troubleshooting guide & parts list to bring there.
              Bottom line, there's something wrong with the unit that their tech guys either are trying to avoid admitting to, or simply don't know how to deal with it.
              I may humor them with one more call to entertain a third "theory" on whats wrong with it if I get some time, but as it stands the homeowner recalls me mentioning it wasn't a very good unit....he may just await it's demise and replace it with a better name.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: On demand gas heaters

                Originally posted by MPMGinAL View Post
                Just a thought for those of you like myself that like to look at the long term result. The government offers incentives to HO's to go tankless, along with advertised savings. This is appealing to most. What would happen if everyone in a particular nieghborhood went tankless. Demand would typically come at the same time at everyone's house. Do you think the city gas mains could support the extra 150K BTU at once. What if there was one tankless per bathroom? That could equate to alot of gas for a 2" main.
                "Was" offering a tax credit through 12/07...gone now.
                Local gas co still offers a $300 rebate on indirects & tankless with ratings better than 82%, $1000 on boilers better than 90%...but rumor is that may not be too long either.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: On demand gas heaters

                  what do you guys think of this
                  Paloma Industries is one of the largest and oldest gas appliance manufactures in the world. The Paloma PTG-42PVN Natural Gas "On Demand" Tankless Water Heater is designed to supply continuous hot water for your family for up to 20 years or more. The 118,000 BTU burner provides hot water at 4.2 gallons per minute allowing one to two major applications such as one shower and sink to be used at the same time. The "On Demand" feature heats water only when needed, saving up to 30% on fuel costs compared to a standard gas water heater or up to 70% when compared to a standard electric water heater. The .81 energy factor exceeds the requirements for most utility rebate programs. This compact power vented appliance allows for installation flexibility, saves valuable floor space and can be vented horizontally or vertically with no costly add-ons. The built-in digital control thermostat provides precise temperature control.
                  • Continuous hot water - 4.2 gallons per minute
                  • Indoor models supplied with a 120 volt power cord
                  • RTG20003 stainless steel vent kit for horizontal venting (sold separately)
                  • 10 Year limited warranty on heat exchanger, 3 Year limited warranty on parts
                  • Height 22.25 In.; Width 13.75 In.; Depth 5.125 In.
                  • Eco Options approved product
                  • Heats water only when needed
                  • Electronic ignition - no standing pilot
                  • Handles one to two applications at the same time
                  • .81 EF exceeds requirements for most utility rebate programs.
                  • Digital thermostat allows precise temperature control and diagnostics
                  • Compact space saving design
                  • Power vent blower allows flexible venting
                  • Low NOx emissions meet SCAQMD rule 1146 requirements
                  • MFG Brand Name : Paloma
                  • MFG Model # : PTG2-42PVN
                  • MFG Part # : 531830
                  Mike
                  Clark County Plumbing And Drain
                  www.plumbinginclarkcounty.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: On demand gas heaters

                    I think if you're in the shower and the dishwasher or washing machine is running you're not going to be a happy camper. Read your code books fella's. You need to provide continuous hot water to all the fixtures at the same time.
                    sigpic

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                    • #25
                      Re: On demand gas heaters

                      i really like my Rinnai, but I live in the south where the water temp doesn't have to be heated a lot. In fact, during the summer months, you don't even have to turn the hot water on to take a shower. The water lines are shallow enough in our whole area, that the water is plenty warm just on cool.
                      Never get in an argument with a fool, bystanders won't know which one is which.....

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