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  • puzzling toilet issue

    my neighbor has a puzzler with a toilet and maybe y'all can help. he has 2 waqll mounted toilets (eljers, i think) mounted back to back. one has a powerflush and the other is just a standard fluidmaster 400. there is no issue with the powerflush but the other is loosing water from the bowl. the flush is good and the bowl fills. tank remains full and the fill mechanism never kicks on. about 1 1/2 hours later the bowl is virtually empty.

    he had a plumber out. plumber scratched his head and said he had no idea. the tiolet was never removed nor the neoprene ring checked.

    the neighbor asked me to look at it. because the plumber is someone i work with occasionally i declined and explained why. i don't do plumbing and the plumbers don't do drain cleaning.

    i quietly recommended another plumber (didn't hear that from me )

    so how far off is my diagnosis? what else could it be? the water is going somewhere and probably in the wall. i'd had very little experience with wall mounted toilets other than removing a few to clear a blockage in OLD C/I. always replaced the neoprene with a new one and have had, AFAIK, no issues.

    the other plumber will be out either today or tomorrow.

    i'm cutious and all thoughts will be appreciated

    steve
    Last edited by stxrus; 05-27-2008, 09:09 AM.
    In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

  • #2
    Re: puzzling toilet issue

    Originally posted by stxrus View Post
    my neighbor has a puzzler with a toilet and maybe y'all can help. he has 2 waqll mounted toilets (eljers, i think) mounted back to back. one has a powerflush and the other is just a standard fluidmaster 400. there is no issue with the powerflush but the other is loosing water from the bowl. the flush is good and the bowl fills. tank remains full and the fill mechanism never kicks on. about 1 1/2 hours later the tank is virtually empty.

    he had a plumber out. plumber scratched his head and said he had no idea. the tiolet was never removed nor the neoprene ring checked.

    the neighbor asked me to look at it. because the plumber is someone i work with occasionally i declined and explained why. i don't do plumbing and the plumbers don't do drain cleaning.

    i quietly recommended another plumber (didn't hear that from me )

    so how far off is my diagnosis? what else could it be? the water is going somewhere and probably in the wall. i'd had very little experience with wall mounted toilets other than removing a few to clear a blockage in OLD C/I. always replaced the neoprene with a new one and have had, AFAIK, no issues.

    the other plumber will be out either today or tomorrow.

    i'm cutious and all thoughts will be appreciated

    steve
    is the bowl empty?

    you could have a bad trap in the toilet that has a small crack letting the water out.

    does it do this without flushing the other power flush toilet?

    if yes, ignore.

    if it only happens with flushing the power flush, then you have a bad vent or possible a bad baffle in the back to back.

    there could be some debris in the bowl, trap creating a siphon leg?

    how long has this been an issue?

    try augering and see if that helps.

    if not, the trap is probably leaking.

    it might be toilet replacement time

    might need to look at this myself

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: puzzling toilet issue

      Venting issue. The powerful flush of the other toilet can suck the water out of ptraps. Check the manual of any of the newer powerful toilets and they'll say the same thing.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: puzzling toilet issue

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        is the bowl empty? virtually. just enough water, it seems, to prevent sewer smells

        you could have a bad trap in the toilet that has a small crack letting the water out.

        does it do this without flushing the other power flush toilet? don't know. will have to find that out.
        if yes, ignore.

        if it only happens with flushing the power flush, then you have a bad vent or possible a bad baffle in the back to back.

        there could be some debris in the bowl, trap creating a siphon leg? don't understand. elaborate?

        how long has this been an issue? maybe a couple of weeks or so

        try augering and see if that helps.

        if not, the trap is probably leaking.

        it might be toilet replacement time

        might need to look at this myself you are welcome to come and visit anytime you wish
        rick.

        thanks. i'll pass this off to Tom, the neighbor, and post more as i know

        steve
        In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: puzzling toilet issue

          Will have to agree with the others. There are only two ways for the water to disappear from a toilet bowl. Either a crack in the trap of the fixture, or a siphon caused by another fixture. If this problem has just started I would check to make sure all of the vents are clear first.
          Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: puzzling toilet issue

            Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
            Venting issue. The powerful flush of the other toilet can suck the water out of ptraps. Check the manual of any of the newer powerful toilets and they'll say the same thing.
            just asking, but if it was a vent issue wouldn't the shower, tub and sinks not drain or drain slowly?

            steve
            In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: puzzling toilet issue

              The shower, tub, or sink may be stack vented and may not be affected. Do they have a thirsty dog?
              Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: puzzling toilet issue

                they are probably on another stack, the power flush is most likey "venting" through the standard W/C. The baffle in the back to back fitting has most likely deteriorated and or the vent stack is plugged right there causeing the siphon 10 to 1 that is the problem, someone would see water somewhere. I agree with Rick's diagnosis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: puzzling toilet issue

                  If you could open up the wall, you would most likely find a double sanitary tee. Which for siphon flush toilets would be fine. It is a prohibited fitting when using blow out fixtures for just that very reason. The blow out fixture causes the other fixture to siphon. He will most likely have to change the blow out fixture to remedy the problem.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: puzzling toilet issue

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    If you could open up the wall, you would most likely find a double sanitary tee. Which for siphon flush toilets would be fine. It is a prohibited fitting when using blow out fixtures for just that very reason. The blow out fixture causes the other fixture to siphon. He will most likely have to change the blow out fixture to remedy the problem.
                    not out here/ upc.

                    requires a baffle.

                    plus how would you ever snake a back to back without a baffle?

                    snaking with a baffle is possible. snaking without a baffle is an accident waiting to happen.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: puzzling toilet issue

                      I've seen high wind areas blow across a vent, get the water moving in the bowl, and siphon it out.

                      J.C.

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                      • #12
                        Re: puzzling toilet issue

                        Originally posted by Devine Plumbing View Post
                        The shower, tub, or sink may be stack vented and may not be affected. Do they have a thirsty dog?
                        Ill be that is it!!!! That would be priceless!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: puzzling toilet issue

                          thanks, i'll try to answer some of the ?? Tom is running an erand and i'll check with him later.

                          no, the dog doesn't drink from the toilet. at least not that much. yes that would be priceless

                          most of our construction is concrete so "opening" a wall isn't as easy as a sharp knife. it'll be a last resort.

                          the powerdlush was installed about a yar ago and this is a recent problem.

                          not enough strong wind to justify a syphon that way. already ruled that out

                          to the best of my knowledge i've never encountered a baffle in backto back wall mounts. they look like a double santee. haven't seen the offending pipe...yet

                          wall mounts were very popular here in the 70s and we had very little code at that time.

                          gotta go but i'll check back

                          steve
                          In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: puzzling toilet issue

                            Steve, have him flush the powerflush while you observe the bowl on the other side.
                            Movement in the water in the bowl tells all...
                            Rick has all the right questions...mainly how long this has been happening would be a strong hint also.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: puzzling toilet issue

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              not out here/ upc.

                              requires a baffle.

                              plus how would you ever snake a back to back without a baffle?

                              snaking with a baffle is possible. snaking without a baffle is an accident waiting to happen.

                              rick.
                              Not here either for back to back blow out fixtures, but I'm gonna assume that the original fixtures were not blow out. Still a baffled fitting or a double wye + 1/8 bend would be preferred, but I'll bet there's just a plain old double san tee back there.
                              sigpic

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