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My tankless experience summary

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  • #16
    Re: My tankless experience summary

    Originally Posted by Chemeng
    OK, so 20% savings of my summer hot water gas bill...hmmm I normally spend $25 x 20% is 5 bucks....not bad ....I install a $3000 tankless unit and save 5 bucks a month...I'm SOLD....where do I sign up for one?.....

    Ok, sorry...my mistake....lets use 40% savings...so I normally spend $25 x 40% is 10 bucks.....not bad ....I install a $3000 tankless unit and save 10 bucks a month natural gas...I'm SOLD....where do I sign up for one? (and 40 gallons of 140oF water is enough for my house).

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    • #17
      Re: My tankless experience summary

      Originally posted by nomoreleak View Post
      Softeners as I understand it Kill tank water heaters because they eat the anode rod then move on to the tank. But with a tankless there is no anode and the heater exchangers are more often than not copper which a softener will leave a coating on making it harder for deposits to stick to. This is all just what I have gather in my short 3.5 years in the field so I most definitely ma have been mislead. I do know some tankless companies won't honor the warranty unless there is some form of water treatment to the unit. please correct me if I am wrong

      Which tankless companies are you speaking of? Please elaborate... ( I think I know where you are going with this but this may not have been the way to phrase it)

      What is eating the anode in the traditional water heater so quickly I wonder? The anode is what is refered to as a "sacrificial anode" it's job is to corrode so the exchanger will not, but both fail at an alarming rate in the presence of an improperly installed / maintained salt softner.

      I have never heard of a softner placing a protective coating on copper pipes please elaborate on this also:-)

      A tankless heater heats the water very quickly through very small passages in it's heat exchanger... The heating of the water causes the minerals to fall out of suspension and deposit themselves on the exchanger water side surfaces. Do we really think Joe homeowner is going to do the required descaling on his tankless? but I digress...

      Of course a well designed and managed water treatment system will be better for all of a plumbing systems components, But..... It has been my experience that a homeowner will buy a softner or one will be already installed in a recently purchased home and all a homeowner will do is just keep adding salt. Maintenance and water testing do not happen.

      At this point a few things happen...

      Over softened water is just as damaging as the unsoftened water you are trying to treat which will lead to membrane failure which will release the softners resin beads into your water system where they will form a Gel clogging everything to include the flow impeller that turns on your tankless heater...

      So before I saycatch-all "get a softner" I would say have your water evaluated by an independant company to determine if you even need a softner and be prepaired to take care of it or you will cause even more problems down the road.

      A simple sediment filter is a good idea in a tankless installation IMO.

      I base the above on my experiences with improperly installed and maintained salt softners and tankless water heaters



      Okie
      Last edited by OkieBill; 11-14-2008, 07:03 PM. Reason: I'm always interested in learning something new

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      • #18
        Re: My tankless experience summary

        The Company of which I am speaking is Takagi and they do not recommend flushing there units.

        As for a protective coating like I said I may be wrong but Monday I intend to call several tankless reps to get to the bottom of this. Another theory would be that a tank as a giant sediment trap. But a tankless's narrow piped heat exchanger keeps any sediment from setting down and attaching because of constant flow.

        I was also under the impression that softeners will extend the life of your copper pipe why would the same not be true for a copper heat exchanger.

        Where I am EVERYONE has very hard water

        Another question what is the difference between Potassium Salt and regular salt?

        should we start a softener effects tankless thread?

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        • #19
          Re: My tankless experience summary

          i have a customer in beverly hills with a tankless that is less than 1 year old.

          today was the second time i've had to go there to flush out minerals/ sediment that has plugged a flex line suppling hot water to a guest lav widespread faucet.

          got lucky and was able to backwash the flex by removing the hot flex from the angle stop.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

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          • #20
            Re: My tankless experience summary

            Time for December's results.

            Natural Gas

            This year: 86 therms.

            Last year: 97 therms.

            11.3% difference.

            Combined therm savings to date: 15%
            Combined dollar savings to date: 16%

            In November, just because, I checked the inbound filter. There was a little sludge. Nothing a small tooth brush could not take care of ...

            Nothing new really to report. Kids are still showering great. No one has complained about running out of hot water or pressure drops.

            (Again, as a reminder, I also have about 15% more heating space too due to an add on done in September. The heating unit was not changed.)


            Water Usage

            Water Usage Nov 2008: 1860
            Water Usage Nov 2007: 1600

            I used 260 more units of water, or about 16%, this year for this time period, than last year.

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            • #21
              Re: My tankless experience summary

              Time for January results.

              Natural Gas

              This year: 143 therms

              Last year: 121 therms

              A -18.2% difference.

              Combined therm savings to date: 15%
              Combined dollar savings to date: 3%

              Gasp ... did you read that right ... yes a negative result!

              There were 30 days in my billing cycle last year.

              This year there were 35 days in my billing cycle.

              That is a large difference, about 17% more billing days. If you were to project last year out to 35 days, you would come to 142. So in that perspective, I would have come out about even.

              (Again, as a reminder, I also have about 15% more heating space too due to an add on done in September. The heating unit was not changed.)

              So this month was a negative ... with the long billing cycle this month however ... odds are I am due for a shorter billing cycle next month ... so I should catch up some.

              Don't have the water results yet ...
              Last edited by theoak; 01-17-2009, 05:36 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: My tankless experience summary

                Well, that's about what most figured.
                sigpic

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                • #23
                  Re: My tankless experience summary

                  my tankless is 3 weeks old right now.

                  so far the delay and volume drop are most noticeable.

                  havn't seen a full month gas bill yet. no house heating as it's been in the 80's for over a week

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: My tankless experience summary

                    Newsflash! Trucks use 1 gallon of gas than versus cars using 10 gallons of gas! Buy a truck now!



                    Fine print:

                    Each truck traveled a distance of 10 miles using 1 gallon of fuel.
                    Each car traveled a distance of 300 miles using 10 gallons of fuel.

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    Well, that's about what most figured.
                    Go ahead ... buy your truck ...

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                    • #25
                      Re: My tankless experience summary

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      my tankless is 3 weeks old right now.

                      so far the delay and volume drop are most noticeable.

                      havn't seen a full month gas bill yet. no house heating as it's been in the 80's for over a week

                      rick.
                      80's ... that is just wrong ...

                      Volume drop ... interesting ... I noticed none in my application ...

                      Well let me correct myself ... when every hot water tap is on ... okay ... that never happens though.

                      I look forward to your results.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: My tankless experience summary

                        Originally posted by theoak View Post
                        Time for January results.

                        Natural Gas

                        This year: 143 therms

                        Last year: 121 therms

                        A -18.2% difference.

                        Combined therm savings to date: 15%
                        Combined dollar savings to date: 3%

                        Gasp ... did you read that right ... yes a negative result!

                        There were 30 days in my billing cycle last year.

                        This year there were 35 days in my billing cycle.

                        That is a large difference, about 17% more billing days. If you were to project last year out to 35 days, you would come to 142. So in that perspective, I would have come out about even.

                        (Again, as a reminder, I also have about 15% more heating space too due to an add on done in September. The heating unit was not changed.)

                        So this month was a negative ... with the long billing cycle this month however ... odds are I am due for a shorter billing cycle next month ... so I should catch up some.

                        Don't have the water results yet ...
                        YOUR FIGURES!

                        So at what point in history do you figure this installation will break even much less start paying back?

                        At 3% you and I will both be dead.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: My tankless experience summary

                          I am so sick of this argument and this subject. No matter how many times the numbers get run (with the same result) those that are in love with the technology will never be swayed. Most likely because no one wants to think their purchase was a waste of money. So buy what you want and by all means LOVE it, but if you need absolution you have come to the wrong place. You are only likely to get your blessing from fellow purchasers.
                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            Re: My tankless experience summary

                            I myself will wait about 10 years for reports to be confirmed. Until then I will log information.

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                            • #29
                              Re: My tankless experience summary

                              I am sorry to disappoint ...

                              If you are looking at my results as a "case study", then my results would be a poor candidate if eligible at all simply due to the fact that not only has my water heater changed, but also my home. Adding that second variable makes an accurate comparison impossible without some sort of gauge on the water heater before and after the water heater change which I did not have.

                              However, the fact that my natural gas costs and usage have not increased thus far I feel is a valid testimony to the fact that the unit works and works well and works as advertised.

                              I continue to log the results simply for those interested ...

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                              • #30
                                Re: My tankless experience summary

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                ...
                                At 3% you and I will both be dead.
                                Speak for yourself ...

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