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My tankless experience summary

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  • #61
    Re: My tankless experience summary

    so now you pay for the power to keep the pump running and for the gas it takes to keep the water hot. not to mention the added wear and tear on the heater and the piping circ system. don't forget to flush that heater as it will lime up much faster now with the circ. system running.

    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: My tankless experience summary

      A recirculating pump completely defeats the point of a tankless water heater. if you are constantly circulating hot water the heater is constantly heating. Your gas bill will go back up.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: My tankless experience summary

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        so now you pay for the power to keep the pump running and for the gas it takes to keep the water hot. not to mention the added wear and tear on the heater and the piping circ system. don't forget to flush that heater as it will lime up much faster now with the circ. system running.

        rick.
        Rick,some good arguments! Problem is ,all You have to back this up, is logic and facts!

        PRETTY WEAK!
        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: My tankless experience summary

          Originally posted by Soapm View Post
          ...
          The only problem I am having with our tankless is the guy installed in at the opposite end of the crawl space so it was close to the gas service. We have a good 40 or 45 feet of 3/4" pipe between it and the first facet. That is an awful lot of water to run out the pipe before we get the hot stuff. We were waiting about a minute 15 seconds for hot water before I installed a circulating loop. Now we wait about 40 seconds.
          I have a line similar to this in my house. I swear the hot water line runs through an ice chest or something. I will get hot water, turn it off of 10 seconds ( I might be exaggerating a little ... ), turn it on again, and cold water. I had this problem too with the tank, so it is nothing new ... just frustrating.

          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
          A recirculating pump completely defeats the point of a tankless water heater. if you are constantly circulating hot water the heater is constantly heating. Your gas bill will go back up.
          He might have it on a timer where it turns on 30 minutes before he wakes up or something like that ... so it might not be that bad ... with tankless heaters however typically having a minimum flow requirement prior to turning on it would be interesting to see how it was implemented ... perhaps a small electric water heater???

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: My tankless experience summary

            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
            so now you pay for the power to keep the pump running and for the gas it takes to keep the water hot. not to mention the added wear and tear on the heater and the piping circ system. don't forget to flush that heater as it will lime up much faster now with the circ. system running.

            rick.
            Not so, the circulating loop only runs when we turn on hot water. During the day, it is never running.

            I used a flow switch which senses the demand for water and turns on the recirculating loop. The flow switch is in series with a aquastat that turns off the pump when the loop reaches 120 degrees. This way the loop only runs when someone turns on the hot water and turns off once a piece of copper pipe in the loop reaches 120.

            Here is a picture I made of the loop...

            http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7...ulationfv9.jpg
            Last edited by Soapm; 05-07-2009, 10:18 PM.

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            • #66
              Re: My tankless experience summary

              Easy eman,
              when you do a recirc on a tankless, you run the recirc into a 6 gallon electric heater.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: My tankless experience summary

                Originally posted by Bogart View Post
                Easy eman,
                when you do a recirc on a tankless, you run the recirc into a 6 gallon electric heater.
                I saw this when I was trying to design my system...

                http://www.waiwela.ca/downloads/diag...-diagram-1.pdf

                I guess I don't fully visualize how it works.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: My tankless experience summary

                  Originally posted by Bogart View Post
                  Easy eman,
                  when you do a recirc on a tankless, you run the recirc into a 6 gallon electric heater.
                  Tankless is not Tankless.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: My tankless experience summary

                    [quote=Soapm;228332]Not so, the circulating loop only runs when we turn on hot water. During the day, it is never running.

                    I used a flow switch which senses the demand for water and turns on the recirculating loop. The flow switch is in series with a aquastat that turns off the pump when the loop reaches 120 degrees. This way the loop only runs when someone turns on the hot water and turns off once a piece of copper pipe in the loop reaches 120.

                    So how long to hot water after a long period of no hot water use? It doesn't seem like it would get you hot water faster.

                    So you have eliminated the sandwich how much did it cost?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: My tankless experience summary

                      sounds like all the pump does with that flow switch is to start the pump while he waits for the pump to circulate the standing water instead of wasting it down the drain.

                      i speed it up by turning on my shower, wait 10 seconds, then turn on the 3/4'' deck tub valve. sure i waste the water down the drain, but not my time or all the power, pump and troubles with a non conventional recirc system. plus with low flow toilets, my tub blast helps keep my lines flowing.

                      when you add a 6 gallon electric surge/ recirc tank to the tankless install, all you're doing is robbing peter to pay paul

                      you want to save gas, install a gas control on your tank to turn your heater into electronic ignition and eliminate the standing pilot.

                      i have proof that the pilot maintains the water temperature and standby heat loss. i've posted this in the past.

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: My tankless experience summary

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        sounds like all the pump does with that flow switch is to start the pump while he waits for the pump to circulate the standing water instead of wasting it down the drain.

                        i speed it up by turning on my shower, wait 10 seconds, then turn on the 3/4'' deck tub valve. sure i waste the water down the drain, but not my time or all the power, pump and troubles with a non conventional recirc system. plus with low flow toilets, my tub blast helps keep my lines flowing.

                        when you add a 6 gallon electric surge/ recirc tank to the tankless install, all you're doing is robbing peter to pay paul

                        you want to save gas, install a gas control on your tank to turn your heater into electronic ignition and eliminate the standing pilot.

                        i have proof that the pilot maintains the water temperature and standby heat loss. i've posted this in the past.

                        rick.
                        Me too. Most pro-tankless people I encounter have blinders on to look at the big picture of good, bad, loss of investment return, etc.

                        If they get a gas biil that's $10.00 less they assume it's savings. But I'm learning to tell them, "You're right".

                        J.C.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: My tankless experience summary

                          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
                          So how long to hot water after a long period of no hot water use? It doesn't seem like it would get you hot water faster.


                          In the kitchen it cut me down from about 1 minute 10 seconds to about 40 seconds.

                          Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
                          So you have eliminated the sandwich how much did it cost?
                          No, it didn't completely eliminate the sandwich effect. I can however brush my teeth and shave in the morning and not get the sandwich when I get in the shower. The only time we get a sandwich now is when we use water a short while after someone else did. This means there was hot water in the system, the loop has shut off and won't turn on so there will be about 6 seconds of cold water fed into the system waiting for the tankless to kick back on.

                          The cool thing is I can turn the hot water on then back of when I go to the restroom and by the time I wash my hands I will have instant hot water. The loop also makes my dish and clothe washers work better.

                          The pump, aquastat and flow switch I got off ebay for about $100. The pump and aquastate came together for about $70 (used) and the flow switch cost $30.

                          The PEX I used was left over from a previous plumbing fix when I had to cut into the down stairs bathroom ceiling to fix a leak.

                          I will admit I paid out the nose for the sharkbite fittings even though I got most off ebay. However, since I am not plumber they saved me on labor because they allowed me to do the job myself. Total, I guess about $180.

                          The check valve in the pump had gone bad so I shut down the loop a few days while I waited for a standalone valve off ebay. We really missed the loop and don't think we could fully appreciate the tankless without it. The return of the sandwiches etc... really sucked.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: My tankless experience summary

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            you want to save gas, install a gas control on your tank to turn your heater into electronic ignition and eliminate the standing pilot.

                            i have proof that the pilot maintains the water temperature and standby heat loss. i've posted this in the past.

                            rick.
                            Trust me, in my case I would have done this. We have a crawl space about 3 or 4 feet high (barely room to sit strait up) so our old tank was a low boy (sp?). I could find a gas low boy to save my life and we would have had to upgrade our electrical to install an electric heater. That is the only reason we went tankless.

                            Anyone familiar with these http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/te...is_hybrid.aspx it says it is a hybrid but I have no idea how well they work.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: My tankless experience summary

                              http://www.maytagwaterheaters.com/cs...MRGSS00206.pdf

                              "Long-lasting steel gas burner, pilot-less electronic ignition and
                              quiet, efficient operation."

                              Im sure there must be other brands out there as well

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: My tankless experience summary

                                direct vent heaters are made by everyone.

                                your maytag is made by ao smith.

                                the nice thing is the ability to use pvc for venting and the vent gasses are cool.

                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

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