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My tankless experience summary

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  • #91
    Re: My tankless experience summary

    August 2009:

    Natural Gas


    August 2008: 13
    August 2009: 7

    Therm Savings: 6 or 46%.

    Total Therm Savings to date: 12%
    Total Dollar Savings to date: 12%

    A year later ...

    Charts for my therm and water usages for the year are attached to this post.

    The final numbers ...

    Without doing any messing around with the numbers, I saved $34.03.

    With that being said my fuel costs did go up just after I got the tankless. So, if I translate the therms I used for the tank for the 2007 - 2008 year and use my current therm rates, I saved $94.12.

    When will I see "MY" payback?

    Including installation and cost for the unit, I paid $2,500 even.

    Some might want to use just raw numbers (2500/94.12) and come out with 26 years.

    Personally, I do not think that is fair. I see my payback in "about" 10 years for the following reasons ...

    1. I added about 15% conditioned more square footage to my home at the same time I installed my tankless. Therefore, my natural gas usage this year would have been even lower during the months I used heat and hence my savings would have been even higher. If we take a stab and say I would have had a 10% difference during those months that would have put my savings dollar savings to 21% or $148.63.

    Over 10 years this works out to about $1500.

    (I admit this point is debatable. 10% may be high, it may be low. Some may agree, some may not.)

    2. Assuming you believe the tankless "studies", I would need to replace my water heater in about 6-10 years (my tankless in 20 years). How much will a water heater and install cost in 10 years? $500? $1000? Lets say $500.

    Therefore, thus far, over 10 years I have saved $1500 + $500 = $2000.

    (I admit this point is very debatable. Some may agree, some may not.)

    3. Every time there is a price increase on my fuel, my savings is magnified due to the efficiency differences of my tank (60% +/-) and the tankless (80% +/-). This is a hard one to guage as I have no idea what the cost of my fuel will be in 10 years. With out messing with any numbers (even considering point 1), I came out over $30 ahead this year. Lets say I average a $30 saving per year over the 10 years to account for price increases and efficiency differences. That works out to $300 over 10 years.

    Total thus far: $1500 + $500 + $300 = $2300

    4. I have a young family currently at 8, 7, 4, 2, 1. My kids are going to get older and hence they are going to shower more and longer.

    5. Time, how much is one's time? I no longer have to wait for hot water after my crew has showered. I don't "have" to have half of my crew shower at night and the other in the morning for the reasons of no hot water (for example).

    It is my opinion that points 4 and 5 would easily make up $200 over the 10 years. Personally, for me, I save at least 1 hour per week not having to wait for hot water for a shower. How much do you get paid per hour ($10? $20? $50?) ... this could add up real fast.

    Bringing the savings total over 10 years to:

    $1500 + $500 + $300 + $200 = $2500 or the cost of installation.

    I should see payback in approximately 10 years. QED

    Disclaimer

    This are "my" results for "my" application. Because I saw a 12% savings, does not mean you will. If you are considering a tankless, do your research, seek the opinions of those that have one in your area, and seek the opinions of qualified installers/plumbers that actually "come out" to your location and evaluate what you have.

    Natural gas is explosive! Only have qualified and certified professionals install a tankless (or tank for that matter) unit. "Do not try this at home" as the expression goes ...

    Done

    90 posts later and over 5000 views for this thread ...

    This concludes my year analysis of my tankless water heater.

    Flame away Try to be nice ...

    Attached Files
    Last edited by theoak; 08-17-2009, 03:45 PM.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: My tankless experience summary

      Please don't forget to add the cost of annual maintenance for your tankless heater.

      $75-$150 per year for descaling...


      This may throw a wrench into your numbers if it has not been addressed.

      (Even if you descale your heater yourself it still has a material cost as well as a cost in time to be factored into your payback equation.)




      Bill
      Last edited by OkieBill; 08-18-2009, 07:37 AM.

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      • #93
        Re: My tankless experience summary

        Don't forget to add the 15 square feet of living space you gained by removing the tank heater. What's that worth to you?

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: My tankless experience summary

          out here we use a 24'' x 24'' shed or a 30'' x 30'' shed.

          15 square feet is the size of a powder room. 6' x 2'6''.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: My tankless experience summary

            Originally posted by OkieBill View Post
            Please don't forget to add the cost of annual maintenance for your tankless heater.

            $75-$150 per year for descaling...


            This may throw a wrench into your numbers if it has not been addressed.

            (Even if you descale your heater yourself it still has a material cost as well as a cost in time to be factored into your payback equation.)




            Bill
            Technically, tank based water heaters should be flushed yearly too ... so this is a "wash" (pun intended)

            Edit: Not that it makes a difference, but yes, I do it myself. See this link for tankless flushing details.

            Originally posted by plumberscrack View Post
            Don't forget to add the 15 square feet of living space you gained by removing the tank heater. What's that worth to you?
            The heater is in the garage. Even if the heater was in conditioned space prior, that would not have changed things.
            Last edited by theoak; 08-18-2009, 08:53 AM.

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            • #96
              Re: My tankless experience summary

              Yeah, I know, its a year old, but hey, that post took a lot of work.
              sigpic

              Robert

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              • #97
                Re: My tankless experience summary

                The planets must be in perfect alignment and the water must have a very low amount of total dissolved solids for the tankless to perform well with a low service factor.It is also recommended for faster delivery of hot water to each fixture to plumb a pex valve manifold with dedicated hot circuit lines to each faucet.Filtering the water is mandatory.
                There are too many tiny water passages in the valves to clog up.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: My tankless experience summary

                  Thanks for all your posts. I am going to put two Noritz 842's in my boss' house to support his 15 gpm shower. When we get a bigger job that is making money, I will buy one as well, to replace my tank heater. I am going to run the flue up through my abandoned B-vent. I will start my own thread.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: My tankless experience summary

                    Originally posted by theoak View Post
                    Technically, tank based water heaters should be flushed yearly too ... so this is a "wash" (pun intended)

                    If your chart is going to be accurate it should account for the cost of the pump and the yearly vinegar. We all know that a tank heater will function for many many years without ever being flushed and when we do flush them it is not for 45 minutes which is your estimated time for a tankless service so you have a net time difference as well to account for. Your tankless will not function for years without descaling.

                    Tankless service kit is 59 bucks (pump and hoses) @ 45 minutes ($70) of labor for the first year (if your tankless has service valves).
                    5 bucks in vinegar and 45 minutes ($70) of labor each year after.

                    With you percieved 10 year payback you would need to add $804 in maintenance costs.... Oppps so much for that 10 year payback now...LOL


                    Edit: Not that it makes a difference, but yes, I do it myself. See this link for tankless flushing details.
                    It only makes a difference if you are trying to make an objective analysis and leaving out real costs



                    The heater is in the garage. Even if the heater was in conditioned space prior, that would not have changed things.
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • Re: My tankless experience summary

                      It has been a long time since I have looked at this thread.

                      I thought it would be worth posting what my current usage has been to date.

                      The point I just wanted to show was that my usage for my study last year was not an exception and that the savings are being maintained. Comparing August and on between the two years ... I am actually still saving ... even compared to last year. My current usage is around 92% of last year. So the savings still continue!

                      I have attached the chart that my natural gas company shows online ... I'll let the chart speak for itself ...
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • Re: My tankless experience summary

                        Bill:

                        If your chart is going to be accurate it should account for the cost of the pump and the yearly vinegar. We all know that a tank heater will function for many many years without ever being flushed and when we do flush them it is not for 45 minutes which is your estimated time for a tankless service so you have a net time difference as well to account for. Your tankless will not function for years without descaling.

                        This may be something we have to agree to disagree.

                        During the 45 minutes I spent in cleaning ... I actually spent feeding my kids lunch ... so I am not quite sure if your comments are completely fair ...

                        I will be honest that I do not know what current tanks recommend as to when they should be flushed, but the tank based water heater I used to have did recommend a yearly flush. The fact that a tank may function longer without a flush is not the point. The facts are that both a tank and a tankless recommend a yearly flush. I do not see a huge difference between the time and costs after all is said and done if a professional were to come out and do either.

                        Either way ... in the post I did on Aug 17, 2009, for point 5, I could easily up that amount and come out ahead. The fact that with my family of 7 ... and we never run out of hot water ... for my family ... has been priceless. After all of my family has showered and bathed, my wifes starts her shower and even still today she says ... "that water heater was the best part of the upgrade" ...

                        Edit:

                        As noted prior ... I will remind folks ... everyones application and circumstances are different ... so one may or may not see these savings. For me however ... if I had to make the decision again ... I would have done it a year earlier
                        Last edited by theoak; 04-07-2010, 10:53 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: My tankless experience summary

                          anyone want a 16 month old tankless

                          joey hates it.

                          but i'm saving a whopping $5.00 on my monthly gas bill

                          except i'm wasting a lot more water and time waiting for the heater to flush out the cold and deliver the hot. not to mention my tub now fills much slower as it can deliver the volume for my 3/4'' deck valve.

                          my hi efficiency washing machine is no longer hi efficiency as i need to run the kitchen sink while the laundry is filling so that the heater will not cycle on and off as the hi efficiency washer is filling. there washers fill by cycling and not a constant fill. therefore the heater will turn off and deliver cold water unless i was running the kitchen sink.

                          i know that if my 20 year old tank heater had an electric ignition and not a standing pilot lite, it would easily make up that $5.00 a month savings.

                          so to sum it up.

                          joey gives the new bidet seat a thumbs up

                          and gives the tankless a

                          i have to agree

                          rick.
                          phoebe it is

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                          • Re: My tankless experience summary

                            Rick have you looked at this yet? http://www.bradfordwhite.com/iconAccessMovie.asp
                            You can put this stuff on any heater that has the new honeywell gas valve ! This thermostat may make the tankless people feel real dumb what an american made tank type water heater that you can program haha!!
                            Last edited by Clipper City Plumber; 05-22-2010, 07:11 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: My tankless experience summary

                              Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
                              Rick have you looked at this yet? http://www.bradfordwhite.com/iconAccessMovie.asp
                              You can put this stuff on any heater that has the new honeywell gas valve ! This thermostat may make the tankless people feel real dumb what an american made tank type water heater that you can program haha!!
                              How much does all that stuff cost?
                              A well insulated 50-gallon tank with no open flue constantly cooling the water seems a much better way to go.
                              Wish I could put a damper on my water heater.
                              I'd take an educated guess - but I'm unqualified.
                              It ain't just soot, it's paydirt.
                              "I swear, wherever Gift goes, argument follows." -Youtube comment

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                              • Re: My tankless experience summary

                                I have not gotten the prices yet but it has to be cheaper than running a larger gas line or changing the system to 2lb . and cheaper than stainless steel vent . the part carry the same warranty as the heater too. Maybe this is why Bradford white has held off on making the tankless model and just improving what they already make? some thing else I have mentioned on hear before is installing a Drain water heat recovery loop. I don't hear any tankless guys talking about that? http://www.energysavers.gov/your_hom.../mytopic=13040

                                Old tech that makes sense to me at least. Hear is the thing for me where does the tankless tech come from? It comes from the lands of high energy tax and limited spaces. Tankless is not new they have been in germany at least since the 20s and we used side arm heaters for a long time. And to say oh tank heaters only last 4 to 6 to 8 years ! I bet the owner did not do any maintenance to the tank were it did not last. Their are many ways to do one thing and it is easy to see the only thing driving this is advertising money from the tankless companies . Another way to get american dollars trick them into thinking they are really saving money .

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