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  • cross connections fire depts.

    On fire hydrants, do They have back flow protection ? Any documented cases of cross
    connections that have led to sickness? Just a thought.
    I am hoping to hear from Dunbar and Mark along with others. Thanks Tool
    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

  • #2
    Re: cross connections fire depts.

    no none at all.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: cross connections fire depts.

      Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
      On fire hydrants, do They have back flow protection ? Any documented cases of cross
      connections that have led to sickness? Just a thought.
      I am hoping to hear from Dunbar and Mark along with others. Thanks Tool

      All municipal fire connections and all sprinkler systems are considered a necessary evil. While sprinkler systems necessitate the use of an RP they are allowed to have a double check instead to prevent pressure drops. Fire hydrants have nothing to prevent a cross-connection but it has been deemed there is more risk of loss to life and property by a fire than by a cross-connection.

      Water trucks are another story but if you notice the water trucks do not connect directly to the hydrant as there is a significant air-break at the top of the tank for the filler.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: cross connections fire depts.

        Thanks Mark. Man, You sure have a lot of info under that ball cap! I know firemen are a professional lot,and take care.
        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: cross connections fire depts.

          Fire hydrants around here that are directly connected to the public city main do not have any backflows. Now with that said, hydrants that are on private fire lines are some times protected from backflow. This depends on how far from the circulating city main it is (in other words the water dept. does not want a long section of piping dead ending with only a hydrant on it, their thinking is the water in this long section will become stagnent and the chlorine will dissipate). I have run 100's of feet of private fire line with hydrants and run-ins for sprinkler systems and we had to install back flows at the tap to the city main. I have run 100's of feet of water line with hydrants and run-in for sprinkler systems with the backflow inside of the building, and a domestic water tap off of this same line (the thinking of the water dept. is that with the dom. water tap up close to the building at least there will be fresh water running throught this pipe to keep the chlorine levels up).
          Have delt with several water districts and each one is different. One in particular will not let a fire hydrant act as a blow off, we have to run a seperate two inch line off of the main, set a valve and box, and run galv. pipe on a 45* up out of the ground, crazy shet to me.
          The best way to flow a fire hydrant is to close the underground valve in front of the hydrant, remove the cap(s), open the hydrant, and then operate the underground valve in front of the hydrant. A little more work but exercises both valves.
          I did some drain cleaning with a hydrant once but thats another story, haha I guess you could say it was a two inch jetter.

          G3

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: cross connections fire depts.

            Hey why not a law, all pressure washers be equipt with backflow protection,also fertilizer canisters ?
            I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: cross connections fire depts.

              Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
              Hey why not a law, all pressure washers be equipt with backflow protection,also fertilizer canisters ?
              actually pressure washer that draw directly from a hose and not a tank should be required to have a backflow protection.

              i know that i was speaking to the gorlitz guys a number of years back and that got called on it by the health department.

              the towable jetters have the air gap above the tank.

              rick.
              phoebe it is

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: cross connections fire depts.

                Most municipal water systems are laid out such that most points are fed from more than one direction. This provides redundancy so that is a main breaks or repairs are needed and a section has to be shut down the majority of customers will still have water.

                However, there are sections, out near the ends of the lines, where there may be only one or two feeds to a particular part of the water main. If there is a fire and you have a couple pumpers drawing water off the main in a section fed from only one or maybe even two directions, they can draw the water out fast enough o bring the pressure in the main below that in your house, and create a back-siphon condition. Also, if there is a small leak in the main under normal circumstances this is not too much of a threat to water quality, but when the pressure get so low in the main that ground pressure is greater than system pressure, that leak is now a cross-connection and the ground water can flow into the main, thereby contaminating the water system.
                ---------------
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                • #9
                  Re: cross connections fire depts.

                  Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                  Most municipal water systems are laid out such that most points are fed from more than one direction. This provides redundancy so that is a main breaks or repairs are needed and a section has to be shut down the majority of customers will still have water.

                  However, there are sections, out near the ends of the lines, where there may be only one or two feeds to a particular part of the water main. If there is a fire and you have a couple pumpers drawing water off the main in a section fed from only one or maybe even two directions, they can draw the water out fast enough o bring the pressure in the main below that in your house, and create a back-siphon condition. Also, if there is a small leak in the main under normal circumstances this is not too much of a threat to water quality, but when the pressure get so low in the main that ground pressure is greater than system pressure, that leak is now a cross-connection and the ground water can flow into the main, thereby contaminating the water system.
                  My town had a 10" main break the other day, attempting to reroute/bypass that main caused two other breaks. With a crew of two in the water/sewer dept I knew they were swamped. I gave him a call and he said get here now. One guy and I along with a three other top guys(construction Co) fixed the 10". Public works guys helped with the other two (house services).
                  Because hardly any valves work in the town, the pumps had to be shut down and we had to wait for the holding tanks to drain. 3p.m to 12A.m. just waiting for the water to stop.
                  I went home at 6am when I could not stop shaking and everyone said my face was purple.

                  Fortunately A HUGE national construction Co that originated in town does a lot (free) for the town will be helping with the new plan to prevent these type of problems.
                  Workers and machines, all town employees and others (all hands on deck).
                  Will in one day install new valves in all key areas. Water will be shut down 24hrs in order to do this. Should be fun and expensive but but our infrastructure has been ignored for over 20yrs.
                  Attached Files
                  INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
                  Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

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                  • #10
                    Re: cross connections fire depts.

                    Fire Departments are mainly comprised of positive flow systems and when hooked to a truck it is considered an attachment that introduces potable water to the equipment.

                    Once it connects to a fire hose though, it's no longer potable.


                    The fire department can create a ton of cross-connections that exist in property owner's homes if they already exist, creating a heavy reversal of flow.

                    This however does not imply liability whatsoever, just that the fire department is drawing significantly more water at one given time to save life and limb, control property destruction.


                    If someone has a sillcock for outside faucet with no backflow protection and a house 3 doors down catches on fire,


                    the fire department hooking up and pulling that water has the potential to suck that chemical right into the lines. That does not make them liable. It does make the property owner liable if enforcement of backflow protection exists, and/or equipment failure becomes the result of the danger that is posed in that particular situation.

                    Type in "Cross Connections" and you'll see how easily these situations play out, and so many never get registered and reported for the valuable knowledge base it provides.
                    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                    • #11
                      Re: cross connections fire depts.

                      Sure seems like there's lot's of potentials for cross connections out there!

                      Dunbar,I know You could give Us all A classroom lesson on this. Not taking anything away from anyone else here.
                      I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: cross connections fire depts.

                        Gene, Thanks for the pics. Did that pipe split along the length? Always thought the break would occur across the pipe, not along the length.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: cross connections fire depts.

                          The whole point of backflow prevention installed on premises IS to protect against abnormal conditions that will occur, albeit rarely, on the main. Conditions such as described above with regard to FD usage.

                          Here, all hose bibbs are required to have vacuum breaker, but many are still grandfathered.

                          Water trucks hook up through a meter and backflow.

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                          • #14
                            Re: cross connections fire depts.

                            Originally posted by lovetheUSA View Post
                            The whole point of backflow prevention installed on premises IS to protect against abnormal conditions that will occur, albeit rarely, on the main. Conditions such as described above with regard to FD usage.

                            Here, all hose bibbs are required to have vacuum breaker, but many are still grandfathered.

                            Water trucks hook up through a meter and backflow.

                            Where are you at that they are requiring backflows on the hydrant meters? I know PM makes one but it is only approved as a meter not a backflow. The problem is getting it approved by USC due to it being temporary and portable. In theory it would have to be re-tested and certified each time it is connected. That said it is a good idea.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: cross connections fire depts.

                              That is why when the hydrants are open some houses have rusty water .

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