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  • #31
    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

    Originally posted by natalie1999 View Post
    Thoughts?
    Try calling another plumber. Seriously consider PM'ing plumberscrack if you haven't already.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

      Actually you might want to give it a try yourself. I replaced my PRV and added a thermal expansion tank by myself last year. See http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20244 Big thanks to Rick and others.

      For the PRV, I was lucky to find a replacement part (Wilkins) that has the exact same dimension as the original one (Cash-Acme), and that it has thread in one end and union at the other. So it was relatively easy, though it did weep the first time I put it together since I only wrapped two or three layers of teflon tape. Adding more layers solved the problem.

      Adding the expansion tank took me a bit longer because I had to solder some fitting (my first time!). If I were to do it today, I would probably consider Shark Bite to avoid soldering. Home Depot has it.

      It took me a total of maybe five hours for both projects, plus lots of heartburn. So far so good -- no leak yet. Much more than saving money, I think I enjoyed getting something done.

      On the same topic, you might want to consider flushing out sediments from the water heater once every few months. You wouldn't believe the amount of sediments in mine. And if your water heater has the 15-cent plastic drain valve, replace it with a ball valve. It's easy and well worth the effort.

      Good luck.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

        HIGH WATER PRESSURE


        THERMAL EXPANSION



        Name:  58a5f5db75ed505d97c1f9f3d9a523fe.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  24.4 KB


        Everybody, please educate yourselves about these two issues, along with the seriousness of backflow protection in your area.
        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

          dunbar, i now know why your regulators are an issue. the watts you use require 150# to open and allow for thermal expansion. the problem is that the relief valve is set to 150# so technically there is no thermal bypass with the watts. (got this info from a reliable source).

          the wilkins and the honeywell brauckman i install only require a 1# positive pressure to allow for thermal expansion. so basically the highest the pressure could ever get to is 1# above street pressure.

          i would seriously think about swapping to a regulator that actually has a thermal bypass. the watts you use is useless. no wonder my supply houses don't stock them.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

            Originally posted by natalie1999 View Post
            Thanks -- I'm trying to get some estimates from reputable plumbers in my area.

            From the picture I posted, how hard of a job would it be to replace our water pressure regulator? It is a Watts N35B, which I couldn't find on the watts website (it seems they have N45B now). A couple of days ago, I asked a plumber how much to replace this and he said $457. The part is only 80-100 dollars. He said to also replace the main water valve because it was cheap and he recommended replacing it with the kind that is a lever ($200 to do that). I thought this was over the top expensive because he admitted the parts would cost no more than 120 for both regulator and valve.

            Thoughts? I have a good handyman so if it's not too complicated, I was going to ask him to do it. He's fixed angle valves, supply lines, and my toilets.
            In most states, it is illegal for a "handyman" to work on your water heater or potable water system, and the work will not be covered under your home insurance. The person needs to be a licensed plumber.
            Water Heater Reviews & Water Heater Information

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            • #36
              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              dunbar, i now know why your regulators are an issue. the watts you use require 150# to open and allow for thermal expansion. the problem is that the relief valve is set to 150# so technically there is no thermal bypass with the watts. (got this info from a reliable source).

              the wilkins and the honeywell brauckman i install only require a 1# positive pressure to allow for thermal expansion. so basically the highest the pressure could ever get to is 1# above street pressure.

              i would seriously think about swapping to a regulator that actually has a thermal bypass. the watts you use is useless. no wonder my supply houses don't stock them.

              rick.


              What "issue" are you speaking of?


              Also, you're either purposely missing the logic of what a thermal expansion tank does, or you just don't have the knowledge background to discuss this, which is it?


              You keep talking about T&P settings, I'm speaking about a PRV set to 60psi and you're stating with your own words that fluctuations to 90psi is a normal thing in your town.

              For a Watts device with built-in bypass, 135psi is when the device will allow for reversal of flow, only in the case the main line pressure is not higher. I'm repeating myself once again.

              The last thing I expect from a PRV is thermal expansion protection. That's why the expansion tank is a must have device used for the combination.


              As I repeat, and tell your Wilkins rep this as well; those Wilkins 70 series PRV's are the most notorious PRV's to fail, and always fail twice as fast as a Watts.

              IF you care about your customer, you put in a Watts.

              If you want to jip your customer and give them something you'll have to replace in short time, put in a wilkins. It's that simple and my scrap brass barrel doesn't lie on the internet.


              Now, I'll repeat it again not for you but for any reasonable thinking individual that can understand the basic function and necessity of a pressure reducing valve in combination with an Expansion tank:


              When you install a pressure reducing valve, you want that device to limit water pressure to a certain pressure, not dance around and "reverse" pressure back to the main. Anyone that's a licensed backflow certified understands the dangers of the reversal of flow in potable water systems.

              The expansion tank in combination with a pressure reducing valve acts as the cushion to absorb what thermal expansion is created inside a closed system.

              The PRV has a limiting factor and that's why codes require some type of thermal expansion protection, NOT working off the maximum setting of a T&P blowoff or some type of astronomical number that no regular potable water supply should see in normal operation.

              A pressure reducing valve is useless if it never protects the system from random pressure fluctuations.


              I'm guessing in almost 300+ PRV's I've installed since 2002, I bet I've only had 3 "bad" PRVS. Wilkins, if I average the ones I remove from a home that never made it 5 years of operation, I'd say I've replaced 3 a month. It's that common. But then again, they're the cheapest, that's why.


              Keep on topic to what I'm talking about; residential homes. Not commercial construction where it's more than obvious that higher static pressures are required for supply and demand in large structures.


              I can't put a PRV on a building housing 5 businesses with a static pressure of 100 pounds; I might be solving a night time problem when everyone is gone, but if there's 7-13 fixtures operating in that building, a PRV will cause low flow problems everywhere. Same reason I can't install PRV's on homes in covington kentucky because they all have high water pressure but undersized water lines stretching to the 3rd and 4th floors. Correct the pressure and the top floors have no water pressure.


              There's a reason why I get thank you cards and gift certificates for correctly diagnosing high water pressure when so many won't.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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              • #37
                Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                if watts regulators are so good

                why is it that of the 4 different supply houses i buy from, none of them stock a watts. yet they do stock their relief valves.

                i also have a case of watts #210 that are out lawed here in los angeles. apparently they are capable of allowing water into the gas system

                so you want to buy a $1000 of #210 for 50 cents on the dollar of wholesale.

                a wilkins #70 du regulator is a cartridge style regulator. a wilkins 600 is the standard.

                if the city of los angeles dictates a good portion of the upc codes. then why don't they have backflow / checks on the million plus meters they have in the city? even the new electronic meter i have at my shop and 2 year old meter at my house is lacking any backflow preventer. this is true also in the other local cities i work in.

                fire sprinkler meters yes.

                potable meters that have booster pumps, yes, but not at the meter. on the service.

                but then again we still have some open reservoirs.

                why is the watts the only domestic regulator that doesn't have thermal expansion properties? why is it not stocked in our market?

                are we that different than the rest of the country

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                  Dunbar,

                  I think you guys are talking two different things. The purpose of the bypass on a pressure regulator is to control thermal expansion. I was surprise to hear Watts bypass does not work until it hits 150 psi as I don't see how it would qualify under the code. The Wilkins which is predominant out here has a check valve with a pressure differential of 1-pound. Any pressure created on the house side of the regulator which is higher than the set pressure is pushed back into the city water system. That is why we are not required to install an expansion tank until the pressure in the street exceeds 150-psi which is the relief setting of the T&P. If you set your regulator at 60 psi it will not get above 61-psi without releasing the pressure back to the city system through the bypass in the regulator. We also do not have dual checks on the meter yokes until the meter exceeds 2".

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    if watts regulators are so good

                    why is it that of the 4 different supply houses i buy from, none of them stock a watts. yet they do stock their relief valves.

                    i also have a case of watts #210 that are out lawed here in los angeles. apparently they are capable of allowing water into the gas system

                    so you want to buy a $1000 of #210 for 50 cents on the dollar of wholesale.

                    a wilkins #70 du regulator is a cartridge style regulator. a wilkins 600 is the standard.

                    if the city of los angeles dictates a good portion of the upc codes. then why don't they have backflow / checks on the million plus meters they have in the city? even the new electronic meter i have at my shop and 2 year old meter at my house is lacking any backflow preventer. this is true also in the other local cities i work in.

                    fire sprinkler meters yes.

                    potable meters that have booster pumps, yes, but not at the meter. on the service.

                    but then again we still have some open reservoirs.

                    why is the watts the only domestic regulator that doesn't have thermal expansion properties? why is it not stocked in our market?

                    are we that different than the rest of the country

                    rick.

                    Isn't California the leader of cross-connection case histories in regards to backflow?

                    I want Mark to answer this because he's a licensed backflow tester like myself.

                    You absolutely NEVER want water to enter a private water system, then reverse back to the main. Too many issues in regards to that school of thinking.



                    Do you agree or not? I take the knowledge of my license in regards to backflow and cross-connections very seriously, knowing that death and sickness has resulted countless times, and that's only the times that were notated/registered by news stories or casualties.


                    You might have the best tasting water in CA, but from the way you're belting out how you all deal with thermal expansion and meters without backflow protection...it's certainly not the safest.


                    When water leaves the meter brackets here in Kentucky, it's never coming back; people live longer that way when so much can go wrong from home to home, commercial to industrial on so many levels of the playing field.
                    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      Dunbar,

                      I think you guys are talking two different things. The purpose of the bypass on a pressure regulator is to control thermal expansion. I was surprise to hear Watts bypass does not work until it hits 150 psi as I don't see how it would qualify under the code. The Wilkins which is predominant out here has a check valve with a pressure differential of 1-pound. Any pressure created on the house side of the regulator which is higher than the set pressure is pushed back into the city water system. That is why we are not required to install an expansion tank until the pressure in the street exceeds 150-psi which is the relief setting of the T&P. If you set your regulator at 60 psi it will not get above 61-psi without releasing the pressure back to the city system through the bypass in the regulator. We also do not have dual checks on the meter yokes until the meter exceeds 2".

                      Mark

                      Where are you all coming up with 150? Wilkins is predominant in my area too, with the water district. That's how they save money and raise our rates at the same time. Their high pressure PRV's don't hold up well, otherwise I wouldn't constantly see them blown in dual meter brackets with them still looking like they came right out of the box sometimes. But the 70's...

                      You see them inside the home and I've seen them 2/3/5 years old and defective. Stud not cranked in to rupture the diaphragm either.


                      I never mentioned this, but the N55's I use with the thermal expansion bypass? I ignore that feature because it does not work till 135psi, so it's deemed useless, that's why the thermal expansion tank is required.


                      We cannot allow water to reenter the main water supply. It still happens, of course but they are slowly doing every meter in northern kentucky with a dual check at the meter, automatic thermal expansion tank at the water heater.


                      Both, as you well know, will fail in time.
                      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                        Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                        Where are you all coming up with 150? Wilkins is predominant in my area too, with the water district. That's how they save money and raise our rates at the same time. Their high pressure PRV's don't hold up well, otherwise I wouldn't constantly see them blown in dual meter brackets with them still looking like they came right out of the box sometimes. But the 70's...

                        You see them inside the home and I've seen them 2/3/5 years old and defective. Stud not cranked in to rupture the diaphragm either.


                        I never mentioned this, but the N55's I use with the thermal expansion bypass? I ignore that feature because it does not work till 135psi, so it's deemed useless, that's why the thermal expansion tank is required.


                        We cannot allow water to reenter the main water supply. It still happens, of course but they are slowly doing every meter in northern kentucky with a dual check at the meter, automatic thermal expansion tank at the water heater.


                        Both, as you well know, will fail in time.
                        I called the technical desk at Watts today and they told me their bypass checks do not open until 150 psi.

                        I agree with using the dual checks at the meter yokes but they do not do it here. As such the approved method under the UPC is not to install a thermal expansion tank unless there is a check valve on the cold side or you use a regulator without a bypass.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                          By the way just to add, some of you know I am the President of a Water Company in Utah. I require dual checks on all yokes or the Developer cannot tie in. I have also given ultimatums to our largest user (existing service) to come into compliance or be shut down.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                            Isn't California the leader of cross-connection case histories in regards to backflow?
                            it's also home to the "usc" testing labs. they write the book on backflow and cross connections. funny part they are in los angeles.

                            chances are if it's approved in los angeles, it's approved in the surrounding jurisdictions and rest of the country.

                            i'm not licensed in backflow testing, but that doesn't mean i don't understand or believe in it's principles. i can still install them, service them, just not sign off on them. too much of a specialty niche i never was exposed to in my new construction background. but then again, i do more than my share of specialty work.

                            any need for those watts 210 water heater gas shut offs
                            going real cheap.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                              Thanks to cpw for telling me about plumberscrack. Thanks to everyone else for the advice too.

                              My regulator is not working properly. I suspected it but now for sure I know. I left the gauge on overnight after everyone took their shower and no one was gonna use more hot water. I woke up at 5 am and checked. Spiked to 100 and static was 70. If I may say so, wth. Our regulated pressure is supposed to be 47. Once we started using water it went down. Usually during the day it stays there.

                              A plumber told me to replace the main water valve if I replace the PRV with a ball valve. Does everyone here agree?

                              I don't know what Virginia (I live in Northern Virginia) laws are but I'm getting consistent high estimates from the plumbers in my area. I really can't afford $600 right now. I guess I could save up and do it later, but I don't want to wait on this.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                                typically there is a hose bibb on the high pressure side of the regulator. if not you can check at the neighbors house.

                                keep in mind that the city pressure will fluctuate too. at night time with low use their system will pick up pressure.

                                they make a pressure test gauge with a secondary needle that will show the maximum psi that was reached overnight.

                                truthfully 90 psi is not that bad. we require regulators above 80 psi. but 90 is not the end of the world. if you find that toilet ballcocks start to run, then it's an issue.

                                get the pressure gauge and test on both sides of the regulator.

                                also bill, plumberscrack is in your neighborhood. i'm sure he will get you all squared away.

                                rick.


                                Originally posted by natalie1999 View Post
                                Thanks to cpw for telling me about plumberscrack. Thanks to everyone else for the advice too.

                                My regulator is not working properly. I suspected it but now for sure I know. I left the gauge on overnight after everyone took their shower and no one was gonna use more hot water. I woke up at 5 am and checked. Spiked to 100 and static was 70. If I may say so, wth. Our regulated pressure is supposed to be 47. Once we started using water it went down. Usually during the day it stays there.

                                A plumber told me to replace the main water valve if I replace the PRV with a ball valve. Does everyone here agree?

                                I don't know what Virginia (I live in Northern Virginia) laws are but I'm getting consistent high estimates from the plumbers in my area. I really can't afford $600 right now. I guess I could save up and do it later, but I don't want to wait on this.
                                i guess this post#10, was lost 10 hours after your initial post

                                rick.
                                phoebe it is

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