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  • #46
    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

    Sorry Rick! I totally misread your post. I didn't know plumberscrack name was Bill so I thought you were talking to someone named Bill. Lol.

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    • #47
      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
      I called the technical desk at Watts today and they told me their bypass checks do not open until 150 psi.

      I agree with using the dual checks at the meter yokes but they do not do it here. As such the approved method under the UPC is not to install a thermal expansion tank unless there is a check valve on the cold side or you use a regulator without a bypass.

      Mark


      Maybe what I was told was an "interpretation" from my watts rep from Disney-McClaine, stating that those devices start bleeding off at 135.

      Isn't that a fair asessement that the device will do this, before opening full bore at 150? Leaking off pressure at 135 and going full bore at 150. I cannot believe that it's ability to open is cut and dry at 150.

      Kinda just like a T&P... slowly opens before it opens full bore.


      I can't see my rep making such a statement other than the reason of testing of these devices in the design function of their product. Besides, 15 pounds.
      Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 02-18-2009, 11:55 AM.
      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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      • #48
        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

        Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
        Maybe what I was told was an "interpretation" from my watts rep from Disney-McClaine, stating that those devices start bleeding off at 135.

        Isn't that a fair asessement that the device will do this, before opening full bore at 150? Leaking off pressure at 135 and going full bore at 150. I cannot believe that it's ability to open is cut and dry at 150.

        Kinda just like a T&P... slowly opens before it opens full bore.


        I can't see my rep making such a statement other than the reason of testing of these devices in the design function of their product. Besides, 15 pounds.
        I agree and to go one step further I am not sure I believe the guy at Watts. I asked for the pressure differential and he told me it wouldn't matter as it opens at 150 psi. The whole idea of a bypass is to allow thermal expansion to escape. If your regulator is set at 80 psi (I know I set mine at 60 psi as well) why let it rise by 70 psi before releasing the pressure?

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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        • #49
          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          I agree and to go one step further I am not sure I believe the guy at Watts. I asked for the pressure differential and he told me it wouldn't matter as it opens at 150 psi. The whole idea of a bypass is to allow thermal expansion to escape. If your regulator is set at 80 psi (I know I set mine at 60 psi as well) why let it rise by 70 psi before releasing the pressure?

          Mark

          That's why I ignore that feature in the PRV, because I know the expansion tank catches anything immediately without sending the water back into the main.


          I've had maybe 2 people contact me after the work was done, asking me why I installed "both" the PRV and EXP tank and I explained to them that the thermal expansion bypass doesn't start providing protection till 135psi, only if the main pressure doesn't match.


          I then explain that if I don't install both...you'll be calling me later that evening telling me that you have hard bursts of water coming out of the faucets or toilet when initially opening/flushing the fixture. Or better yet; T&P discharging.

          That's not going to happen on my dime. It's an all or nothing scenario, and people have wanted me to replace just the PRV with no expansion tank. No can do. I tell them I'm responsible for your plumbing system at that point and I'm not going to come back and install a EXP tank for free, just because I listened to a customer.


          Just hearing what rick said about the situation in LA scares the tar out of me, even though the water tastes so good out there straight from the tap.

          You and I know how many possibilities arise out of reversals of flow in positive pressure potable water systems.
          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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          • #50
            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

            Originally posted by natalie1999 View Post
            Thanks to cpw for telling me about plumberscrack. Thanks to everyone else for the advice too.

            My regulator is not working properly. I suspected it but now for sure I know. I left the gauge on overnight after everyone took their shower and no one was gonna use more hot water. I woke up at 5 am and checked. Spiked to 100 and static was 70. If I may say so, wth. Our regulated pressure is supposed to be 47. Once we started using water it went down. Usually during the day it stays there.

            A plumber told me to replace the main water valve if I replace the PRV with a ball valve. Does everyone here agree?



            I don't know what Virginia (I live in Northern Virginia) laws are but I'm getting consistent high estimates from the plumbers in my area. I really can't afford $600 right now. I guess I could save up and do it later, but I don't want to wait on this.
            If you have a Gate or globe type valve I agree. Cheaper I am sure to do it at the same time.

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            • #51
              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

              after all these pages all i have to say is WOW.... i dont know why the home owner even noticed they had a problem unless the pressure relief valve was blowing on the water heater... if my home pressure got to 100lb. pressure i wouldnt care less but would wanna know why my t&p wasnt blowing seems like thats a problem replace it and add the tank.

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              • #52
                Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                Originally posted by Dr. House View Post
                after all these pages all i have to say is WOW.... i dont know why the home owner even noticed they had a problem unless the pressure relief valve was blowing on the water heater... if my home pressure got to 100lb. pressure i wouldnt care less but would wanna know why my t&p wasnt blowing seems like thats a problem replace it and add the tank.

                T&Ps are set to blow at150lbs psi. If it was blowing then youd have to replace it

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                • #53
                  Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                  I was hearing water hammer so I checked my pressure -- leading to this question and posts.

                  I was going to install the expansion tank first, because I'm not absolutely 100% sure my regulator is broken. Of course, I got a pretty decent estimate for fixing the regulator and main water valve, but the estimate for the expansion tank seemed a little high.

                  I wanted to ask if it's bad to negotiate pricing? Is that a no-no? I've never done this before...

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                  • #54
                    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    it's also home to the "usc" testing labs. they write the book on backflow and cross connections. funny part they are in los angeles.
                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

                    chances are if it's approved in los angeles, it's approved in the surrounding jurisdictions and rest of the country.

                    i'm not licensed in backflow testing, but that doesn't mean i don't understand or believe in it's principles. i can still install them, service them, just not sign off on them. too much of a specialty niche i never was exposed to in my new construction background. but then again, i do more than my share of specialty work.
                    I don't know if I would call not having an enforced Backflow Prevention Program in place 'funny' or not, and just because Los Angeles and five surrounding cities don't have the program in place doesn't mean that that they are not in contravention of State law.
                    California Code Title 17 requires Water Purveyors to protect the public water supply. By not having and/or enforcing a Backflow Prevention Program leaves Los Angeles and the five cities wide open for liability, the blood sucking lawyers and the court system when a life threatening incident happens, and it will. And when it happens, people will pay. The problem is that some will pay with their health, some might pay for it with their lives, and everyone else will pay through increased taxes and fees. Water purveyors only get their money from one place.

                    Yes, I am a licensed Backflow Prevention Assembly Tester. I am not a licensed plumber. I do not install Backflow Prevention Assemblies, I can’t. I service and test them only.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                      Originally posted by EasyEman View Post
                      T&Ps are set to blow at150lbs psi. If it was blowing then youd have to replace it
                      i agree..

                      all u need to do is add an expansion tank..... just do it allready

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                      • #56
                        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                        Negotiate away... You have to have something to offer though ... Plumbers need more customers...so if you have a way to help get more customers (ie. referrals) for the plumber . You may be able to get a lower rate. Some guys will let you pick up the parts, then you just pay for the labor. That is how I do side jobs for friends.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                          All fixed....

                          I hope

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                          • #58
                            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                            Great thread BTW.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                              Works like a charm. Thanks again!

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