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  • Thermal Expansion Bypass

    We have a pressure regulator (25-75 psi with a thermal bypass). I am regulating the water pressure lately. Static is 45-50. When the water heater is running, like after a shower, it jumps to 90. My water authority says the mainline is 80 psi.

    Do I need an expansion tank?

    If so, what's a good rate for a plumber to install one? I had a plumber check out my regulator the other day and he said it would cost me $450 to replace.

  • #2
    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

    No way to tell what one would charge for an expansion tank or anything in your area. Ask friends, family, coworkers etc. for recommendations of who they've used. Alot better than the phonebook in my opinion.

    90 psi is a spike that's high enough that it could cause a leak at a weaker joint. So you should consider the expansion tank.

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

      If your pressure at the street is 80 psi and your domestic system creeps to 90 psi when the water heater is on you have a check valve installed in your system somewhere. As such you would be required to have a expansion tank.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

        We bought the house new -- never had an expansion tank, always had a PRV with the bypass. So if they installed a check valve in the meantime, they never told us. Anyway, I'll check around and try to get this done soon. Thanks.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

          Originally posted by natalie1999 View Post
          We bought the house new -- never had an expansion tank, always had a PRV with the bypass. So if they installed a check valve in the meantime, they never told us. Anyway, I'll check around and try to get this done soon. Thanks.
          Because you have a regulator with a bypass, the only way your house pressure could be higher than street pressure would be if you had a check valve between the PRV and the municipal water. Of course that is assuming you are not creating enough thermal expansion to increase the entire city's water pressure by 10 psi.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

            Go buy a water pressure test gauge and tell us what your pressure is before the regulator. How old is your regulator and what size is it?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

              Joey's gonna' kill you.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                Joey's gonna' kill you.

                J.C.
                And it confuses the hell out of me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                  The water pressure regulator is Watts N35B, about 8 years old.

                  I have a water pressure gauge that I've used on the outside hose, as well as on a sink inside with a hose adapter. How do I measure street pressure? Is there something I can use by the water meter (it is outside by the curb)?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                    typically there is a hose bibb on the high pressure side of the regulator. if not you can check at the neighbors house.

                    keep in mind that the city pressure will fluctuate too. at night time with low use their system will pick up pressure.

                    they make a pressure test gauge with a secondary needle that will show the maximum psi that was reached overnight.

                    truthfully 90 psi is not that bad. we require regulators above 80 psi. but 90 is not the end of the world. if you find that toilet ballcocks start to run, then it's an issue.

                    get the pressure gauge and test on both sides of the regulator.

                    also bill, plumberscrack is in your neighborhood. i'm sure he will get you all squared away.

                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                      The pressure regulator indirectly is a check valve.

                      If you have a PRV, you must have some type of device to accommodate thermal expansion and the T&P relief valve is not a viable option.


                      On PRV's with thermal expansion bypass, those are designed to allow a reversal of direction of flow when the static pressure on the protected side is 135psi or greater, and this will only occur if the main line pressure on the unprotected side of the valve is lesser.


                      People think that the valve offers them protection, which it does, but it's at such a high number that the likelihood of a rupture or fail point is greater at such high numbers.


                      A thermal expansion tank will support a range of pressure to within one half pound of deflection on up.


                      Whoever installed that PRV failed to understand that the PRV and Expansion Tank go hand in hand with each other to work properly without incident.

                      If you called the same plumber back, he's obligated to install that thermal expansion tank @ no charge for being unknowledgeable to the basic workings of thermal expansion.
                      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                        Originally posted by cpw View Post
                        And it confuses the hell out of me.
                        The clashing south pacific tattoed WHATOO-TOO tribes used to hang their enemies upside down for long periods of time till they quieted down.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                          Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                          Joey's gonna' kill you.

                          J.C.
                          Let this be a lesson. . .don't fall asleep before Mark He's just running out of ways to tease me.

                          All I have to say is Whatever!
                          Last edited by MrsSeatDown; 02-16-2009, 09:44 AM.
                          I love my plumber

                          "My Hero"

                          Welcome, Phoebe Jacqueline!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                            Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                            truthfully 90 psi is not that bad.


                            rick.


                            Not to piss in your wheaties so early in the morning, but I disagree, heavily with this statement. Correct me if my logic goes astray.



                            Every single valve, faucet, supply line, angle stop, fill valve, water heater, dishwasher, icemaker, washing machine that accepts water and water pressure to operate,

                            is designed and engineered to 60psi. We all know it can operate at higher pressures, but all the flow restrictors on aerators, solenoid valves on dishwashers/icemakers/humidifiers on furnaces/washing machines work off timed solenoid valves, not metered water calculations. The water calculations are visioned at 60psi @ so many minutes to figure a gallon requirement.


                            IF, you take your water pressure above 60, all those gpm flow restrictors are now inaccurate, they are higher than what the flow rates indicate.


                            As far as water wasted with high water pressure?


                            If a washing machine is engineered for 60psi and you're running 90, you're diluting the cycles which equates to wasted water over a 3-5 time fill up for each time the device demands water.


                            Furthermore, in relation to toilets, when a fill valve is engineered for 60 psi and the fill tube into the overflow satisfies the requirement of replenishing the water in the bowl for the next flush, any water after that point is now draining over the traps weir and wasting water at this point. Higher water pressure, more waste.


                            Same goes for dishwashers. When you wash your hands, you don't care if it's 100 pounds or 50; you just want your hands clean.


                            The cyclical methods of everyday use of plumbing can create a substantial gallon overage quite quickly. The analogy I use heavily is to tell a customer if you like high water pressure so much,

                            how about you go and buy every gallon of water you just wasted at the grocery store, every day. That's an eye opener to all of them. It adds up folks, real quick.


                            Here's two others I use to solidify the need for protection, regulating your water pressure to "Normal" pressures that correlate to manufacture designs,


                            Do you go to the doctor, doctor tells you that you have high blood pressure, and you refuse to take it?

                            Do you take your vehicle to the garage and tell the mechanic to put 10-20-40 more pounds of pressure into the tires?

                            Of course not.

                            It all follows the premace of logical thinking, cause and effect of plumbing systems and how they operate both in normal fashion and in the altered state when devices are subjected to pressures higher than what they were designed for.


                            I wrote all this out because anyone can take this knowledge and run with it. It is what I say over and over and over to my customers when I walk into their home, check the water pressure and it's elevated.

                            However, I don't push the protection until it gets above 75. I'll notate anything over 60 as high, but I would not commit a customer to a PRV/EXP tank at 65, 70. 10 pounds is minimal and I wouldn't want a second opinion coming after me in a known area where water pressure stayed below 80 pounds.


                            As plumbers in this profession, (I'm preaching at this point )

                            IF you knowingly walk into a home and touch anything that has a water line connected to it, the first thing you should of done when you arrived is CHECK THE WATER PRESSURE. Doesn't matter if you've worked in the area for years; each one can have a different set of circumstances and you need it from a liability perspective on all counts. If you touch a faucet, supply line or valve and it blows off, ruptures or what have you, It's still your fault and a liability claim but you need to know why.

                            Having that pressure gauge in your hands is the same as a doctor when they see you. What's the first two things they do? Check your blood pressure, then your temperature. They want to check for symptoms that lead to underlining problems. That is what we as plumbers are trained to do...not just fix the symptoms and move on.


                            I couldn't tell you how many thousands I've made off of these issues in my area, but I'll tell you that every customer that committed to this protection, it might of knocked me out of a job in the long run in regards to product failure, but I feel good knowing I've done something on the level that protects the consumer from constant money spending, instead of the plumber knowingly ignoring the core issue that's keeping him/her gainfully employed.

                            Codes across the United States embed the code or regulation for protection over 80 pounds. This is further indication that elevated pressure do cause problems in plumbing systems.
                            Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 02-16-2009, 10:15 AM.
                            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Thermal Expansion Bypass

                              Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                              Not to piss in your wheaties so early in the morning, but I disagree, heavily with this statement. Correct me if my logic goes astray.



                              Every single valve, faucet, supply line, angle stop, fill valve, water heater, dishwasher, icemaker, washing machine that accepts water and water pressure to operate,

                              is designed and engineered to 60psi. We all know it can operate at higher pressures, but all the flow restrictors on aerators, solenoid valves on dishwashers/icemakers/humidifiers on furnaces/washing machines work off timed solenoid valves, not metered water calculations. The water calculations are visioned at 60psi @ so many minutes to figure a gallon requirement.


                              IF, you take your water pressure above 60, all those gpm flow restrictors are now inaccurate, they are higher than what the flow rates indicate.


                              As far as water wasted with high water pressure?


                              If a washing machine is engineered for 60psi and you're running 90, you're diluting the cycles which equates to wasted water over a 3-5 time fill up for each time the device demands water.


                              Furthermore, in relation to toilets, when a fill valve is engineered for 60 psi and the fill tube into the overflow satisfies the requirement of replenishing the water in the bowl for the next flush, any water after that point is now draining over the traps weir and wasting water at this point. Higher water pressure, more waste.


                              Same goes for dishwashers. When you wash your hands, you don't care if it's 100 pounds or 50; you just want your hands clean.


                              The cyclical methods of everyday use of plumbing can create a substantial gallon overage quite quickly. The analogy I use heavily is to tell a customer if you like high water pressure so much,

                              how about you go and buy every gallon of water you just wasted at the grocery store, every day. That's an eye opener to all of them. It adds up folks, real quick.


                              Here's two others I use to solidify the need for protection, regulating your water pressure to "Normal" pressures that correlate to manufacture designs,


                              Do you go to the doctor, doctor tells you that you have high blood pressure, and you refuse to take it?

                              Do you take your vehicle to the garage and tell the mechanic to put 10-20-40 more pounds of pressure into the tires?

                              Of course not.

                              It all follows the premace of logical thinking, cause and effect of plumbing systems and how they operate both in normal fashion and in the altered state when devices are subjected to pressures higher than what they were designed for.


                              I wrote all this out because anyone can take this knowledge and run with it. It is what I say over and over and over to my customers when I walk into their home, check the water pressure and it's elevated.

                              However, I don't push the protection until it gets above 75. I'll notate anything over 60 as high, but I would not commit a customer to a PRV/EXP tank at 65, 70. 10 pounds is minimal and I wouldn't want a second opinion coming after me in a known area where water pressure stayed below 80 pounds.


                              As plumbers in this profession, (I'm preaching at this point )

                              IF you knowingly walk into a home and touch anything that has a water line connected to it, the first thing you should of done when you arrived is CHECK THE WATER PRESSURE. Doesn't matter if you've worked in the area for years; each one can have a different set of circumstances and you need it from a liability perspective on all counts. If you touch a faucet, supply line or valve and it blows off, ruptures or what have you, It's still your fault and a liability claim but you need to know why.

                              Having that pressure gauge in your hands is the same as a doctor when they see you. What's the first two things they do? Check your blood pressure, then your temperature. They want to check for symptoms that lead to underlining problems. That is what we as plumbers are trained to do...not just fix the symptoms and move on.


                              I couldn't tell you how many thousands I've made off of these issues in my area, but I'll tell you that every customer that committed to this protection, it might of knocked me out of a job in the long run in regards to product failure, but I feel good knowing I've done something on the level that protects the consumer from constant money spending, instead of the plumber knowingly ignoring the core issue that's keeping him/her gainfully employed.

                              Codes across the United States embed the code or regulation for protection over 80 pounds. This is further indication that elevated pressure do cause problems in plumbing systems.
                              By the way just as an FYI all faucets, valves and fittings are regulated by ASME A112.18.1 which requires they be designed to operate at pressures between 20 psi and 125 psi. I believe a more accurate statement would be the optimal pressure for operation is 60 psi.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment

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