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  • under sink sump setup?

    a friend of mine recently opened a hair salon and her sink had problems she asked me to take a look. after the p-trap the water drains into the side of a black box approximatly 12''x12''x18'' . 2 x 1 1/2'' abs pipes protrude from the top one being the vent one being the drain they run parralel into the wall then turn upwards each respectively with their own 90's . the reservoir itself was leaking from the top, someone had tried to silicone it shut but did a horrible job, and apparently it was steaming. theres 2 electrical wires leading into the reservoir to control the pumps, just standard 3 prong plugs. i realise that the owner of the building probably installed this setup to give the previous renters a working sink while not having to break the floor and run a proper drain. the previous business was actually just a nail shop and probably only used the sink to wash hands now and then. now that its being used to wash hair im sure its a much greater demand upon the pump(s) . i was looking online at what looked to be a similar setup and it mentioned not to be used with chemicals. Would the "hair chemicals" be a problem? if i change her setup to a larger reservoir with a stronger pump would the constant cycleing be a problem? could this setup work for a year in this application? or is it destined to be an occasionally used sink and in no way able to be a "hairdresser sink" and endure these stresses? any advice on a similar setup involving these (sumps) would be greatly appreciated thanks.
    hot on the left, cold on the right... so hot ladies to the left and cold drinks to the right? lets hope gravity keeps em down all night!

  • #2
    Re: under sink sump setup?

    it looks similar to this http://www.saniflo.ca/SANIPUMP.aspx anyone got experience with these?
    hot on the left, cold on the right... so hot ladies to the left and cold drinks to the right? lets hope gravity keeps em down all night!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: under sink sump setup?

      These contraptions, in my experience, ALWAYS, in ANY application need periodic attention. Also they are generally installed such that it is a complete and total pain to work on them; inside a cabinet, dwv not pressure pipe and all glued in after the box went in with no thought as to how someone is ever going to get the pump out should they need to, and then surrounded by a sea of white carpet.

      That said, they are sometimes the only viable option. But they need to be installed such that they can be serviced.

      A bigger better pump, a true grinder, will solve some problems but true grinders are expensive, like $2-3k, and flow so much they might well blow the undoubtedly micky mouse dwv outlet line apart. Pumps dont like trying to move long stringy things like hair... it ends up wound around the impeller shaft.

      The chems I'm not sure about, but my suspicion is that if it won't burn the skin off your scalp, it probably won't hurt a pump. I'd be more concerned with large amounts of conditioner, shampoo, lotion, etc gunging up the outlet line.

      The more clean water that goes through it the better as this will dilute everything else and help keep things from gunking up.

      No matter how bomber of a system goes in, it will require some attention from time to time.... more $ for better pump, etc will stretch that time period out, but in the end may be less cost effective. If you have to dig the hair out of the pump and jet the line a couple times a year, and burn up a $300 pump every 2-3 years, that may be cheaper than burning up a grinder every so (less) often, and having to jet the line once in a while anyway.

      Mostly I'd advise being very careful what goes down that sink, and putting a good, easily cleanable screen in it to catch the hair before it gets in the box with the pump.
      This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: under sink sump setup?

        the pump is attached into the system with "fernco" clips or "mechanical joints" atleast so removing it for service must of been considered. the top of the resservoir was leaking from where all the silicone had been put around the (top access panel)? im assuming thats the spot you would access your internal components from. in the drain she did have a strainer to catch hair, would inserting a drum trap to be used as a interceptor be a viable way of stopping hair from getting into the resservoir and pumps? do they make screens to be inserted into drum traps? could i just cut one out of something like chicken wire and insert this into a drum trap? u also mentioned the vent and discharge line are to be made out of pressure pipe and not dwv? i believe they are both made of standard 1 1/2'' abs dwv pipe is this a big problem? and as i mentioned the resservoir was steaming before i got to take a look at it and not draining. could that just be from hair tangling around the impeler and inevitably stopping it and then the motor overheating or burning out? id really like to find a simple cost effective solution for my friend however im well aware of the fact simple and cost effective rarely means right. she just has to tough it out one year and to tear open the walls is hardly an option she might as well get a lawyer and sue the owner of the strip mall for everything she has spent to date.(paint,rent,advertisement) the "handy man" of the place was supposed to "fix" her problem yesterday morning and i havnt been intouch with her since. im thinking the only thing that will have changed is there will be another tube of silicone spread over the top of the reservoir wich will most likely still be leaking. thanks alot for the input and thanks in advance to anyone else that may have some wisdom to offer its much apreciated. ---timmy ( i just figured out how to put a signature hope it shows up on this post)
        hot on the left, cold on the right... so hot ladies to the left and cold drinks to the right? lets hope gravity keeps em down all night!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: under sink sump setup?

          If it was leaking out the top, it's likely that the pump has failed and the thing filled up and oveflowed. The steam absolutly could be from a pump motor trying like heck to turn a siezed up impeller.

          tarp/drop cloth the area (everthing will be filthy and get everything it touches filthy as well

          kill the power to (unlpug) the pump

          pull the lid off

          pull the pump out

          dig all the crap out of the bottom of the pump so that it turns freely

          plug it back in w/o installing it and pull its float up and see that it turns off and on with the float; if not it's toast

          there is probably a check valve on the pump outlet side of the piping; make sure that is not plugged up with something

          wet vac out the box to get all the other pump killers lurking in the depths out of there before they get their turn to make work for you

          reinstall the pump if you get lucky and it is ok, install your new one if life got expensive

          test it out through a few cycles to be sure it's working.


          dwv is fine for the vent, but it's really not correct for the pump outlet line, though I commonly see it done that way.

          dwv is made for gravity drains; they are not designed to handle any significant pressure and tend to blow apart at the glue joints in a force main application. often they work ok as there is very little head on these, but it's big mess waiting to happen.

          The ferncos I also hate in this application. I've seen them split or the clamp slip off before. Mission bands or even better husky's are my preference, though the alarming bulging the fernco's do when the pump starts or stops does have the benefit of absorbing some of the hammer pressure and may help prolong the life of the crap dwv outlet piping vs. the much more ridgid mission bands or huskys.

          I'd be more inclined to trust a good, tight, easily cleanable strainer/screen at the sink basket than a drum trap if you have concientious people using the sink

          Get friendly with this piece of junk, you'll be seing it again.
          This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: under sink sump setup?

            apparently the "handyman" got it done, the owner didnt want anyone but him doing the job so it took 3 days and he broke 2 pumps trying. my friend says its now a larger reservoir and working and thats fine by me. thanks for the input though, im sure itll come in handy when his hack job falls to pieces in a couple months from now. maybe then the owner might see the light, well if hes out of jail and allowed to see the light LOL
            hot on the left, cold on the right... so hot ladies to the left and cold drinks to the right? lets hope gravity keeps em down all night!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: under sink sump setup?

              Check the labels on the perm solution they have some nasty chemicals that burn hair and skin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: under sink sump setup?

                i already asked her about perms and she doesnt really do them, not really in style any more. im not really worried about the setup breaking, i know it will. the owner of the building knew they were renting it out as a salon and if he cant provide proper facilities everything is on his back. so if the chemicals and hair are a huge problem its up to him to do something about it as often as he has to for the next 11 months.
                hot on the left, cold on the right... so hot ladies to the left and cold drinks to the right? lets hope gravity keeps em down all night!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: under sink sump setup?

                  Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                  If it was leaking out the top, it's likely that the pump has failed and the thing filled up and oveflowed. The steam absolutly could be from a pump motor trying like heck to turn a siezed up impeller.

                  tarp/drop cloth the area (everthing will be filthy and get everything it touches filthy as well

                  kill the power to (unlpug) the pump

                  pull the lid off

                  pull the pump out

                  dig all the crap out of the bottom of the pump so that it turns freely

                  plug it back in w/o installing it and pull its float up and see that it turns off and on with the float; if not it's toast

                  there is probably a check valve on the pump outlet side of the piping; make sure that is not plugged up with something

                  wet vac out the box to get all the other pump killers lurking in the depths out of there before they get their turn to make work for you

                  reinstall the pump if you get lucky and it is ok, install your new one if life got expensive

                  test it out through a few cycles to be sure it's working.


                  dwv is fine for the vent, but it's really not correct for the pump outlet line, though I commonly see it done that way.

                  dwv is made for gravity drains; they are not designed to handle any significant pressure and tend to blow apart at the glue joints in a force main application. often they work ok as there is very little head on these, but it's big mess waiting to happen.

                  The ferncos I also hate in this application. I've seen them split or the clamp slip off before. Mission bands or even better husky's are my preference, though the alarming bulging the fernco's do when the pump starts or stops does have the benefit of absorbing some of the hammer pressure and may help prolong the life of the crap dwv outlet piping vs. the much more ridgid mission bands or huskys.

                  I'd be more inclined to trust a good, tight, easily cleanable strainer/screen at the sink basket than a drum trap if you have concientious people using the sink

                  Get friendly with this piece of junk, you'll be seing it again.
                  You had all the right answers for this thread !!

                  Comment

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