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  • #16
    Re: Hot Water Remedy

    Care to re-read the responses you got?

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    • #17
      Re: Hot Water Remedy

      Originally posted by wrench spinner View Post
      How can you posibly connect to your sink drain with your T&P and still meet codes! Not to knock ya man but the whole thing sounds a little over engineered. And witht he grudfos system you do not need to add a line for recirc.

      P.S. the grundfos system will use half the energy of your tank, you can put a timer on the recirc you really cant on the point of use unless it is a tankless, and those are not the best,

      P.P.S. your point of use tank will go out too, just like the pump, the difference is a pump will go out and not pump, your point of use will go out and leak, leak alot possibly, and doing a lot of damage!
      Oops, I think you're right - I probably did blow it code-wise as far as connecting the T&P to the sink drain. I'll have to come up with something different.

      You're also right about the recirc line. You don't need one with the Grundfos "retrofit" kit. For new installations, I think they do use a dedicated return line. My comment was based on my feeling that I didn't think that using the cold side as the return was a great solution. You don't have cold water... you have "warm" water. So now you are losing energy from the water heater every time you run the COLD water, too? Yes, I understand it's not much. But, it doesn't strike me as an energy efficient approach. I suspect that the manufacturer agrees, which is why they use a dedicated return line on the new work systems.

      With all due respect, I don't buy at all that the recirc system will necessarily use less energy than a four gallon mini-tank. The pump will consume peanuts, but the heat loss you suffer by keeping hot water in the pipes (which are very effective at losing heat) will be very significant. Of course, in a comparison, a lot depends on how well insulated the mini-tank is. When I put in my kitchen system, I thought I would give it a try and see how it did. The result is that the heating element "on" light is almost never lit. We could debate this but without measuring the energy consumption of two otherwise identical systems using the two approaches, there would be no conclusion. From my perspective, the heat loss from a 4 gallon insulated tank is bound to be much, much less in comparison to the heat loss from 3/4 copper tubing.... even with pipe wrap... due to the unfavorable surface area to volume ratio of the pipe. We make heat exchangers out of copper tubing....

      By the way, there is no problem putting a timer on your mini-tank. It works fine, I did it in the kitchen. The tank turns off at night and when I'm at work. It's only heating 4 gallons, which takes maybe 20 or 30 minutes. In retrospect, I'm not using a timer on the bathroom heater. The kitchen experience showed me that the tank doesn't use enough energy to be worth the timer. I don't understand your comment on putting a timer on a tankless, though. Why would you want to do this? The tankless is a demand system, no? Am I missing something here? I do totally agree that tankless systems don't make a lot of sense in many applications. They're probably great if you don't have any room for a tank type heater... say if you live in a tiny flat in France...

      Finally, longevity.... I agree that tanks do fail. One must keep an eye on a tank for leaks, whether it's a mini-tank or a main tank. I think ten years out of a tank is a reasonable expectation, though. The Ariston I bought has a replaceable anode and you are supposed to change it every year ($15). We'll see how long the tank ends up lasting. You might be right, I don't know. On the other hand, I have a lot of experience with coolant pumps and am comfortable saying that while the manufacturer always has test data that shows long life for their pump, we never, ever, ever (did I mention "ever"?) actually get anywhere near the lifespans quoted by the manufacturers. Pumps don't hold up in real world conditions. Hot water has mineral precipitation issues that tend to crud up the pump (that's a technical term!) and cause problems, and the pump is put right at the hot water heater outlet. I think Grundfos cites a 10 year life span. Again, based on my experience with pumps costing a lot more than $200... I think that would be great but I just don't buy it.

      So, I don't see the issue as black and white favoring either approach. There are pros and cons, and a lot depends on how you weight them . A physicist named Anderson once said, "There is no problem, however complicated, which when you look at it the right way does not become still more complicated".

      -Andy

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      • #18
        Re: Hot Water Remedy

        ENGINEER FIGHT! ENGINEER FIGHT! EVERYBODY BACK UP! THERE'S GONNA' BE SOME CUTTIN' WITH SLIDERULES!!!

        J.C.

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        • #19
          Re: Hot Water Remedy

          By the way, I have to agree with Wrench.

          If I read your posts and remember correctly, you are heading towards three separate water heater's to install and maintain Andy. You might be better served with the pump too.

          J.C.

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          • #20
            Re: Hot Water Remedy

            >> "If I read your posts and remember correctly, you are heading towards three separate water heater's to install and maintain Andy. You might be better served with the pump too."

            Yes, two mini's and the main tank. There's another bathroom but it's right close to the main tank. The installs aren't much. I will have to see how painful the maintenance is, changing anodes and all that.

            You guys might well prove to be right. But my choice wasn't made carelessly. I really think the tanks are going to be more energy efficient. If it proves to be a bad idea, I'll be the first to admit it and do something different. So far, the one I've got running in the kitchen is doing well... only been a year though... we shall see!

            -Andy

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