Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse

How To Post Images

Want to know the how to upload images to your posts? Image Posting Tutorial
See more
See less

Tank... less is more

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tank... less is more

    Hey all,

    here i am with yet another question...

    I've been reading gallons of info about tankless water heater versus conventional tank water heater.

    I understand the pros and cons... Paloma and Takagi all mention that you can daisy chain theire tankless heaters... but they don't really say why... so why would one daisy chain tankless heaters?

    one of the cons of tankless is all the sleepy water in the pipes. once you get used to a recirculating pump (conventional tank heater) you wonder how you could have lived without one... would it be wise to hook up a tankless water heater to a small conventional tank (say with a 6 gal tank) with a recirc pump so that hot water would already be in the pipes and when yo start using hot water, the tank empties but is filled right away by the tankless thus not wasting hot water?

    just curious!

    cheers!

  • #2
    Re: Tank... less is more

    ....would it be wise to hook up a tankless water heater to a small conventional tank (say with a 6 gal tank) with a recirc pump so that hot water would already be in the pipes and when yo start using hot water, the tank empties but is filled right away by the tankless thus not wasting hot water?


    Basically what you will have done is converted your tankless system into a system with a HW storage tank with a remote heating element.

    This will cancel out any savings you might have received for the extra investment in the tankless over a conventional system.

    You've also added two pieces of equipment that will now require maintenance in addition to the tankless WH, the tank will now need to be flushed annually and it will need a T&P valve which should be checked annually. And also the circulator you mention will need TLC as time goes on, not to mention the added expense of the equipment and pipe, fittings, etc PLUS the labor to install these extra parts.

    So, yes, less is more.

    More parts = More money $
    More work = More money $
    More maintenance = More money $

    More hot water...maybe
    Last edited by Bob D.; 07-11-2009, 10:23 PM.
    ---------------
    Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
    ---------------
    “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
    ---------
    "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
    ---------
    sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tank... less is more

      And the reason you would want to hook up more than one heater to each other is for higher demands. Here in Illinois with out 50º incoming water temperatures the best you would get out of a single tankless water heater is around 5 GPM, good enough to run two showers and maybe do dishes. But you get into the homes with a shower that pulls 12 GPM or say 4 full bathrooms and 4 people need to take a shower you will need to have additional tankless units to pick up the demand. So you would end up linking three tankless units to each other. Now when you have a small demand only one unit will fire as the demand increases the next unit will fire and the next. Also the units will rotate which one fires first so all of them will get equal use.

      Some units do allow for you to have a on demand recirculation pump that will not void or lower the warranty.
      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tank... less is more

        In a large home or other building instead of chaining them together why not just dedicate each heater to whatever number of fixtures it can handle based on their combined flow rate and use?

        Daisey chaining does not sound like the most efficient setup.
        ---------------
        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
        ---------------
        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
        ---------
        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
        ---------
        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tank... less is more

          It acutely is. They all are plumbed in a parallel set up and they have a data link cable to allow them to "talk" to each other. Like I said the units will only fire if the demand is high enough to call for the other heaters. Also lets do say we have one of these bathrooms where they have a body sprays, waterfall, and handheld shower that is flowing the 12 GPM having the heaters hoked up each other all of them will fire up to meet the demand for that shower. Where if you had only one unit suppling the master bath, another just for kitchen and laundry and a third for the other two bathrooms. The master bath will only be getting 5 GPM total out of them shower heads since its only getting water from the single unit.
          Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
          A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
          Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
          Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tank... less is more

            Bob D., may I recommend you sit in on a Tankless class. Before I did I used to think the same way, also had my head full of the myths about tankless heaters. Once I took the Level 3 Noritz class I realized I did not know crap about how they work and such. Only thing I did know was properly sizing them and the gas supply is the most important step you need to do before you just jump in Willy nilly.

            I learned that unlike a tank heater if you spring a leak, you do not replace the whole unit. You just replace the leaking part. Yes it looks complicated to take apart, but once you done it a few times it does come natural. But since the units are repairable people will not have to go out and buy a whole new tankless unit 15 - 20 years down the road.

            Also learned the importance about properly plumbing these things in to get maximum efficiency out of the system.
            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tank... less is more

              12 GPM for a shower, sounds more like a car wash.
              Not very "green" either but what the heck, there's plenty
              of good water in those polar ice caps.

              Yeah, I was not thinking along those extremes, but I
              am not too hot for tankless units anyway.

              I prefer my indirect fired off the boiler. If we had NG here
              I would go with a gas fired stand alone heater in place of
              the boiler. Could do LPG but not too keen on the tank
              sitting in the yard or in the ground.
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tank... less is more

                I've taken the Rinnai's installation course and am unimpressed with tankless as a whole. I look on the entire thing as driving a suped up car to go to the grocery store. All you need is hot water. Forget the bells and whistles. This is what I see happening in the future like it did to the hvac business.

                Most things in a common AC unit are replaceable and generally can last fairly long time: 10-15 years. The problems was that service guys and gals were undertrained and failing to diagonising problems so they would just replace the whole unit. I predict the same will happen with tankless W/H. Consumers will spend more money to save on fuel prices but when they break, their plumber won't know how to fix it so replacement is the only option. This leaves the customer mad at Noritz or Rinnai or the tankless WH industry in general. The tankless WH industry will have to raise their prices because of all the warranty returns when simple fixes would've sufficed.

                This is already happening in the HVAC world. I'll stick with the tank WH.
                Buy cheap, buy twice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tank... less is more

                  there has been pages and pages written about tankless on the forum. all you need to do is a search with the word tankless water heater.

                  that should keep you busy for days reading, learning and researching.

                  honestly i feel like we're being tested by your questions.

                  is it just me or is this leading up to a totally different outcome

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tank... less is more

                    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
                    I've taken the Rinnai's installation course and am unimpressed with tankless as a whole. I look on the entire thing as driving a suped up car to go to the grocery store. All you need is hot water. Forget the bells and whistles. This is what I see happening in the future like it did to the hvac business.

                    Most things in a common AC unit are replaceable and generally can last fairly long time: 10-15 years. The problems was that service guys and gals were undertrained and failing to diagonising problems so they would just replace the whole unit. I predict the same will happen with tankless W/H. Consumers will spend more money to save on fuel prices but when they break, their plumber won't know how to fix it so replacement is the only option. This leaves the customer mad at Noritz or Rinnai or the tankless WH industry in general. The tankless WH industry will have to raise their prices because of all the warranty returns when simple fixes would've sufficed.

                    This is already happening in the HVAC world. I'll stick with the tank WH.
                    The Rinnai class left me feeling like I was being pitched by a bad salesman than really learning about how to install a unit. Their advance class is much better, which trains you on troubleshooting the units which does lead into proper installation. Most complaints out there by the home owners after they spent the $$$ on a tankless system is an improperly installed unit. Now when I took the Noritz level 1 class, I really learned a lot about the proper install of a unit. Then I took the Level 2 and 3 classes I was really impressed on how easy it is to service these units. Before the Noritz classes, I used to try and talk people out of tankless systems, but now that I took the Noritz class I am trying to learn the proper way to educate people about tankless systems.

                    There is a lot of hype that both Tanked and Tankless manufactures are putting out there that really muddies up the waters. When I go out to evaluate a possible tankless install to work up a quote, I spend more time explaining the facts to the customer.
                    Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                    A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                    Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                    Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tank... less is more

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      honestly i feel like we're being tested by your questions.

                      is it just me or is this leading up to a totally different outcome

                      rick.

                      knowledge. if you don't like my questions, skip'em.

                      i gratefuly thank all the people that answer intelligibly my questions.

                      as you once told me, **** goes downhill. that's where i see you floating.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tank... less is more

                        Originally posted by HornyPotter View Post
                        knowledge. if you don't like my questions, skip'em.

                        i gratefuly thank all the people that answer intelligibly my questions.

                        as you once told me, **** goes downhill. that's where i see you floating.

                        i've actually answered every single question in detail.

                        the issue i see is that you come on here and all you've done is ask trivial questions. like we're being tested.

                        there is a search feature that will lead you to 99% of all questions you've asked.

                        go back and read everyone of your post and my answers. at a certain point it feels like we're just being played

                        ps. what occupation is an average joe

                        can i ask you similar multiple trival questions to an average joe

                        i think my track record reflects that i answer 99% of all legitimate questions that i respond to. but your track record is 3 off the wall questions and no other input other than the 3 off the wall questions.

                        am i the only one that sees that.

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tank... less is more

                          an average joe a a simple home owner with a 100yo house that does all his stuff himself.

                          wanna ask any trivial or not questions about my line of work? go ahead. i'm a unix systems administrator. been doing this for the past 25 years. i used to work as a computer security consultant for several years too but got bored and went back to my roots.

                          the reason why i do not answer questions asked here is because when in doubt i shut up. i can give advise but i never tell anyone what to do if it is not my line of work.

                          got some unix questions? bring them on.

                          knowledge is everything. the more i learn, the better i feel. i've done 100% of all the plumbing in my house. taken apart old cast iron water heaters, removed galvanized plumbing, put new copper all over the place, avoided pex like it is a disease, even did all my dwv in cast iron. yeah i like it the hard way. abs was too simple... ok the real reason is beacuse CI is SOOO much quieter and ABS...

                          i've redone the upstairs bathroom, added a 6 port thermostatic valve (yeah the kohler one), with 2 dtv digital interfaces (yeah the fancy ones), rigged a fantastic (to my opinion) loop of copper tubing to heat up (hydronic) the 6 pipes for the heads, hooked it up to a recirc pump, etc, etc, etc. did a mud job for a curbless custom made shower, etc, etc, etc.

                          and this is not mentioning the kitchen (16 x 21) total redo. the garage (16x32) redo (electrical, plumbing, hvac, etc).

                          so when i ask a question it is because i'm about to do something and before i tackle it i get all the information possible. i never did a mistake in all i've done. the only thing i never touched is NG. i'm scared like $hit about it and i leave this to a PRO. do my job for a single day without asking questions. heck... do computer administration for for a hobby and see if you can do it. now let's just see if i can do you average day without asking a question. I will be able. will you be able to do mine? the bets are on.

                          so, what's your question about network security? what's your question about unix systems administration?

                          there is no single stupid question. just sorry people who regret never asking a question.

                          'nuf said. back to you in the studio.
                          Last edited by HornyPotter; 07-12-2009, 12:02 PM. Reason: fixed typo

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Tank... less is more

                            Horny Potter, Just a little info and food for thought. When you pick of Rick, you are attacking one of the most knowledgeable and helpful plumbers on this site. He is well respected and liked by many many of us that know him--either personally or through this site. I think you answered his question about being tested. No, you weren't testing, just leeching without being honest about it. Most of us here, including Rick would have been helpful if you had outright asked and not tried to hide behind some facade. Nuff said!
                            PK

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Tank... less is more

                              pipesonte, read and then again re-read the thread. he started it all. he attacked me for no reason.

                              i do not doubt that he knows his stuff. i do not doubt that you all like him. by accusing me of 'testing' him is childish and shows a lack of respect.

                              now you are saying that i m not being honest? the simple fact that people answer to a question and that even if it divert from the original topic shows that the thread might be helpful and is just an occasion for someone to add comments and experience like it is the case in this thread.

                              leeching? no way. never. i've asked why to daisy chain and people answered it. i've asked why not have a Tankless and a Tank, if it makes sense or not and people answered and i am taking everything they say into concideration because this is VALUABLE information, not only for me but certainly other people wonder (or have wondered) about it. now wether it is logical to do or not is debatable. but not LEECHING. i am picking people's brains. the value of knowledge in unmeasurable.

                              i've never been disrespectful to anyone. i've never attacked anyone. the only time when i'll lower myself to this is when i am attacked.

                              i've rest my case. i'm not wanted here? fine. let's have the moderator here ban me. otherwise move on.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X