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  • #46
    Re: Shark Bite Connection

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post

    I'm guessing that is a regional thing. All of our meters out here are either IPS or sweat.



    Actually with a critical supply it often is a race. Be careful not to over generalize as we all do different work. Which commercial jobs are ProPress not allowed on and is that by spec or by Code?



    Again it must be regional as all of the States I work in use it in most of the high rises for fire, potable and chilled water.



    I'm not sure I would agree with that and I'm curious what you think makes it lax. I am Certified and Licensed under both the UPC and the IPC and feel they are fairly close with the IPC being just slightly more lax. You use the IPC with 4-pages of amendments and California uses the UPC with 53-pages of amendments.

    We all (including Rick) tend to base our opinion on what we find where we work. That is probably why we all have different opinions.

    Mark
    You hit the nail in one respect about many things being regional. For Rick and his market, it might be foolish for him not to be diversified with the ability to press fittings.

    But what he should realize is that for many others, it would be foolish to own a press tool from any manufacturer because of the high cost, low usage, & fitting cost. PLEASE don't try to educate me on labor savings.... It's a judgement call for each individuals market.

    Just like it would be a stupid business move for me to buy a trailer jetter. Even if it is near the end of the year and I've taken advantage of all other available moves....

    As far as school, I guess I'm Middle School. Some things old and some things new.

    I've ran miles of PEX because the market here would NOT pay for copper. I could have just said "Copper or nothing." But that would have been a bad business move for both short and longterm.

    PVC functions better for DWV than CI or California's preference for ABS in my opinion. Smoother walled, solvent weld, no scaling. Future draincleaners are screwed.

    Press joints are ok but I feel a solder joint is better. I've already read all the tables more than once and know what does what better in various situations.

    So if the situation warrants a pressed fitting, then do it. But for me that doesn't mean avoiding soldering and always going press. No fittings here anyway but I would still follow the same protocol.

    And whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the end customer does NOT feel they are getting the same value for their money when someone just presses something on and writes a bill. Psychological I guess to a certain degree but it is negative customer relations at times.

    Other than a T&P for quicker changeout, I really don't think a licensed plumber should ever use a Sharkbite fitting. All the leaks that arose before the invention of all these things were repaired in a reasonable time with minor inconvenience.

    Once again, for my region.

    J.C.

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    • #47
      Re: Shark Bite Connection

      I think one of the factors here is East coast Vs West coast plumbing. Things are different out here. I own two pro press machines and neither one of them gets used more than a couple times a month max. Had I not got them for next to nothing there is no way they would be cost effective. buying a 25 hundred dollar tool so that you can wet repair maybe 6 jobs a year is hardly worth the expense and as far as using it for anything else, the fittings are again way too costly when compared to running pex. As for those guys that use it for crimping pex, it is a pretty big expense for a tool that is slower than hand crimping, has batteries that need charging and needs more maintainence than a hand crimper. Then again, I don't crimp, I expand. Pvc is all but useless in high rise buildings because of the noise and expansion factors and fire codes so as long as we keep building up there will be a need for CI.
      sigpic

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      • #48
        Re: Shark Bite Connection

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        I think one of the factors here is East coast Vs West coast plumbing. Things are different out here. I own two pro press machines and neither one of them gets used more than a couple times a month max. Had I not got them for next to nothing there is no way they would be cost effective. buying a 25 hundred dollar tool so that you can wet repair maybe 6 jobs a year is hardly worth the expense and as far as using it for anything else, the fittings are again way too costly when compared to running pex. As for those guys that use it for crimping pex, it is a pretty big expense for a tool that is slower than hand crimping, has batteries that need charging and needs more maintainence than a hand crimper. Then again, I don't crimp, I expand. Pvc is all but useless in high rise buildings because of the noise and expansion factors and fire codes so as long as we keep building up there will be a need for CI.
        See now the difference in PEX is another regional thing. California only permitted PEX or CPVC on a very limited case by case basis until last year. Now it is approved without getting a variance by the job. Still most PEX jobs are for 1" and smaller where most guys doing ProPress is in the larger sizes. I doubt it really pays to ProPress a little house.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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        • #49
          Re: Shark Bite Connection

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          See now the difference in PEX is another regional thing. California only permitted PEX or CPVC on a very limited case by case basis until last year. Now it is approved without getting a variance by the job. Still most PEX jobs are for 1" and smaller where most guys doing ProPress is in the larger sizes. I doubt it really pays to ProPress a little house.

          Mark
          Get ready California, the PEX train is coming.

          J.C.

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          • #50
            Re: Shark Bite Connection

            welll... here goes.... I guess i'll chime in on this one too

            There are entire large structures plumbed with Sharkbites.

            One of them is a hotel somewhere in Nevada. There is another large hotel in Austraila that was done this way.

            Would I do that? No way!

            I agree with many of the replies above. We cannot stay purely in the "old school" and not be replaced altogether with someone else who will do it cheaper, faster and "better" (by someone's definition).

            We also should not forget about some of the older and more proven ways of doing things.

            It depends of the situation, but sometimes; Getting the customer to go for a more expensive option is your ability to build value in the customers mind. "This option will cost 30% more, but is better because of x, y, z... I CAN do it the way that you are asking, provided it doesn't break the law of the land, or the laws of physics... here are the pro's and con's.

            I've been able to change customers minds drastically by finding out what their needs were, and educating them about the options.

            That's not gonna work all the time either. Ignorance (meaning the lack of knowledge), is correctable. Stupidity, remains without a cure to my knowledge.

            Times are tough for alot of people. Some people are thrifty, or just plain cheap (there is a difference, though sometimes a fine line).

            Back to the original question, I use sharkbites for lots of test and temporary stuff. I have installed their slip couplings while water was still spraying me in the face, saving the customer thousands in damage. I occasionally leave one in place as a "permanent" repair, but it depends on the application.

            I have also repaired leaks from damaged and/or improperly installed Sharkbites (not installed by me).

            I've repaired improperly installed propressed fittings too (a PITA).

            While i'm not a huge fan of sharkbites, they have a place.

            If installing a sharkbite somehow makes you not a plumber... Does an electrician that installs a compact florescent, or LED light somehow defile his trade too?

            It's not owning a pipewrench that makes us plumbers, it's knowing how and when to use it effectively.


            ------------------

            Help me support children’s cancer research CLICK HERE!

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            • #51
              Re: Shark Bite Connection

              Home Depot also sells copper. Shark bites are on the shelf above it here, so don't be trying to say just cause you can get it at home depot it's junk.

              Sharkbite works. Situational in my opinion, and if given the time and space, why not press or solder it? But if time, and space are a problem, who can deny that there is anything wrong with using one?

              Sure they are a little jnky, but truth is they are useful, and if you find yourself needing to use one, you will be thankful they are made.

              I personally am not really sure about them, I use them, but as a last resort.
              My avatar, is every mans wet dream, don't lie. We all know you ride the bedroom moped

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              • #52
                Re: Shark Bite Connection

                10 years or so ago there was no such thing and somehow we all managed just fine. Lets be honest here. Just how much time are these saving? 10 minutes, a half hour? And how much money are they saving?
                sigpic

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                • #53
                  Re: Shark Bite Connection

                  Really? You want to use that logic? Why are you online? Ten years ago, you got by just fine without it, or 15, or twenty whatever.
                  My avatar, is every mans wet dream, don't lie. We all know you ride the bedroom moped

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                  • #54
                    Re: Shark Bite Connection

                    No, I guess not. I'm really happy watching the trade go down the drain because nobody cares about anything other that getting in and getting out as fast as possible.
                    sigpic

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                    • #55
                      Re: Shark Bite Connection

                      Originally posted by Rohten View Post
                      Really? You want to use that logic? Why are you online? Ten years ago, you got by just fine without it, or 15, or twenty whatever.
                      I do not know about you, but 10 years ago I was online. Heck I was online 20 years ago. As far as shark bite connectors are concerned I like to use them in a pinch to get a place up and running right away. But I return when it is convenient for them to have the water turned off and I remove the shark bite and make a proper repair.
                      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                      Ron's Facebook
                      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

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                      • #56
                        Re: Shark Bite Connection

                        You know Ron, I am often pretty happy that every year I have anywhere from 15 to around 30 apprentices and kids taking my plumbing course, because it gives me the opportunity to show them that there is more to the trade than getting things done fast and easy and collecting the check. In business I get a constant stream of young hot shot plumbers that have no clue what the word "craft" means. To them, plumbing is just a job, a way to make a few bucks. They don't last long. I have very little tolerance for cheap and fast. Like you, I would use a sharkbite on an emergency repair but I would damn sure go back and remove it as soon as possible. How many times do you hear licensed plumbers extolling the virtues or pex and sharkbites? Pretty often these days. I can't tell you how many times I have heard so called plumbers proudly telling everyone that it has been months since they even took the torch off the truck. Worst thing is, they are proud of the fact that they have been reduced to common place handymen. And they are letting it happen
                        sigpic

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                        • #57
                          Re: Shark Bite Connection

                          I am proud to say I just refilled my B tank the other day. I take pride in my work I do, and doing things quick and cheap is nothing to be proud of.

                          Just like cast iron joints everyone I know use the rubber ty-seal to make the joint. 90% of them do not even own a lead furnace or caulking irons. Every cast iron joint I make is lead and oakum.
                          Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                          Ron's Facebook
                          A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                          Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                          Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

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                          • #58
                            Re: Shark Bite Connection

                            Just to throw some Australian into the conversation we too have issues similar so you guys dont have Patents over this. Here we are using more and more alternatives to Copper. However the regs still make us use copper in most gas situations although the hacks abuse the alternatives purely for financial reasons. There are some of us who express concern over Apprentice training. Like many places training is a joke. The colleges are more concerned with passes rather than competency. Failures mean funding cuts. Then there are the add-on courses which are a joke. Huge bucks for what accreditation. Rick there are good arguements for both sides of the coin. There are traditionalists as well as modernists but most importantly we should all stand and be proud that most of us are real MASTER PLUMBERS, the protectors of the health and wellbeing of the community as a whole. Without us the world will survive but how many would forego the luxury of what we are able to provide.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Shark Bite Connection

                              there are always going to be changes to the way we install plumbing.

                              the days of all cast iron and lead and oakum for the most part are gone. sure there might be a few cities that require it, but that's because of union politics. not because no hub is not proven.
                              we/ california were a hold out on pex for years while the rest of the country / world was installing it. all union politics holding it back. i bought pex/ wirsbo tools about 10 years ago and used them for a total of 6 fittings. i don't knock the guys that use them daily. personally i feel that pex will replace copper in the near future. if they could figure out how to get it uv resistant, it will even be sooner.

                              products don't just show up and get approved without years of testing through approved and recognized testing labs. no different with a sharkbite fitting. this did not just show up at a parts house 1 day.

                              if anyone thinks i don't take the trade serious, you're mistaking. since i was 12.5 i was working summers and weekends. graduated high school and got into the plumbers union. 4 years of apprenticeship finishing top in the combined class of 2 years of graduates. well over 100 other apprentices.

                              i've invested well over 1 million into my business and shop property. there are products that i see every year that i reject based on knowledge of the product and foresight of what i see down the road.

                              sharkbite is a proven design that is no different than the millions and millions of john guess fittings we see everyday.

                              the issue you see is that the product is too easy to install. so easy that a kid with very little training and skills can install it.

                              don't knock the product. knock the kid, who has no formal training and is installing the product for profit. knock the inspectors that are not inspecting the work that people spend money on permits. when was the last time you had a plumbing inspector actually get dirty and crawl under a building to actually inspect the job he was paid for

                              so if you want to knock anyone.knock the people that are suppose to be protecting our trade. not the ones that have spent more time and money as an individual than 99% of anyone in the trades.

                              this coming from a plumber that has installed less than 20 sharkbite fittings in his 34 year career.

                              rick.
                              phoebe it is

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                              • #60
                                Re: Shark Bite Connection

                                Did a job acouple of days ago , It Had Solder joints , use of a flaring tool and Crimped pex ....

                                Dave

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