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Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

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  • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

    code interpretation can be a real tricky thing. Over the years I have seen many a plumber loose his temper because he was absolutely convinced of his interpretation only to later find that he had either not read the code correctly, or had incorrectly inferred things that are not so. That said, we can't use galvy here. the gas utilities will not allow it at all. They have several issues from corrosive gas interaction, to flaking of the coating and even Kevin's scenario which is a possibility. The thing to take from this is to first and foremost follow the code to the letter and be sure you understand it. Second is that when multiple materials or methods are concerned it is your responsibility to do the research and select the best materials based on experience and common sense. For example, code allows me to use pex for water supply piping. I will not.
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    • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

      Finally read this thread, 20 minutes of my life i'll never get back..
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

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      • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

        Originally posted by Kevin Jones
        Oh you want to start the name calling too?
        Ok sir...Book Chapter Section and Code?
        Until then leave the childishness aside. I will be happy to provide my numbers of my masterships. If you have something to add please do or crawl back under your rock.
        Now come on Kev carn't we be mates you have had a fair suck of the sav but
        it is about time you cleared the air and told us your qualificatons as we have and what areas you are registed and licenced in.
        I see by occupation your have changed it from 'A jack of all trades Blar Blar Blar" to "working with real pros" and that is the truth you work with them but are not one of them.

        Tony

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        • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

          Originally posted by AFM View Post
          Now come on Kev carn't we be mates you have had a fair suck of the sav but
          it is about time you cleared the air and told us your qualificatons as we have and what areas you are registed and licenced in.
          I see by occupation your have changed it from 'A jack of all trades Blar Blar Blar" to "working with real pros" and that is the truth you work with them but are not one of them.

          Tony
          My 804 Lic# and Colorado Master Gas# are at my office. One cannot hold a 702 and 601 at the same time, as an overlap of license will decrease the number of allowed employees by 10. My FL 702 Lic#15540. Do you want my EPA# too, and which one because I have 2? Shall I provide my class A CDL tanker and Haz-mat to transport all the things I am talking about?

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          • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            Though this has already come to fisticuffs Allow me to shed some light on the Galvy issue.

            #1 It is an approved material

            #2 Please read the material below. I have highlighted the important bit, however to head off any confusion I should define "Non destructive testing" These tests can be any of many methods used to either X ray, Magnaflux, sonar testing and many other methods that all test the internal integrity of the metal itself. The manufacturer could either test the pipe as it comes off process ( and likely they would for cost reasons ) before the pipe is dipped, or they could test it after the fact. In either case, non destructive testing ( and they pretty much Xray the stuff ) will reveal any defects in the pipe. NFPA requires all piping to be subjected to the test, not just random samples.

            Abstract
            This specification covers seamless and welded black and hot-dipped galvanized steel pipe in NPS 1/8 to NPS 26. The steel categorized in this standard must be open-hearth, basic-oxygen or electric-furnace processed and must have the following chemical requirements: carbon, manganese, phosphorus, sulfur, copper, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium. The tubing shall undergo a seamless or welding process. Tension, bend, and flattening tests shall be performed to make sure that it must adhere to the mechanical properties of the standard. The hydrostatic test shall be applied, without leakage through the weld seam or the pipe body. Nondestructive electric test shall be made to make sure that the full volume of the pipe must be in accordance with the standard. The purchaser shall have the right to perform any of the inspections and tests set forth in this specification where deemed necessary to ensure that the pipe conforms to the specified requirements.
            This abstract is a brief summary of the referenced standard. It is informational only and not an official part of the standard; the full text of the standard itself must be referred to for its use and application. ASTM does not give any warranty express or implied or make any representation that the contents of this abstract are accurate, complete or up to date.
            1. Scope


            1.1 This specification covers seamless and welded black and hot-dipped galvanized steel pipe in NPS 1/8 to NPS 26 [DN 6 to DN 650] (Note 1), inclusive, with nominal wall thickness (Note 2) as given in Table X2.2 and X2.3. It shall be permissible to furnish pipe having other dimensions provided that such pipe complies with all other requirements of this specification. Supplementary requirements of an optional nature are provided and shall apply only when specified by the purchaser.
            Note 1 - The dimensionless designators NPS (nominal pipe size) [DN (diameter nominal)] have been substituted in this specification for such traditional terms as "nominal diameter," "size," and "nominal size."
            Note 2 - The term nominal wall thickness has been assigned for the purpose of convenient designation, existing in name only, and is used to distinguish it from the actual wall thickness, which may vary over or under the nominal wall thickness.
            1.2 This specification covers the following types and grades:
            1.2.1 Type F - Furnace-butt-welded, continuous welded Grade A,
            1.2.2 Type E - Electric-resistance-welded, Grades A and B, and
            1.2.3 Type S - Seamless, Grades A and B.
            Note 3 - See Appendix X1 for definitions of types of pipe.
            1.3 Pipe ordered under this specification is intended for mechanical and pressure applications and is also acceptable for ordinary uses in steam, water, gas, and air lines. It is suitable for welding, and suitable for forming operations involving coiling, bending, and flanging, subject to the following qualifications:
            1.3.1 Type F is not intended for flanging.
            1.3.2 If Type S or Type E is required for close coiling or cold bending, Grade A is the preferred grade; however, this is not intended to prohibit the cold bending of Grade B pipe.
            1.3.3 Type E is furnished either nonexpanded or cold expanded at the option of the manufacturer.
            1.4 The values stated in either SI units or inch-pound units are to be regarded separately as standard. The values stated in each system may not be exact equivalents; therefore, each system is to be used independently of the other.
            The following precautionary caveat pertains only to the test method portion, Sections 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, and 15 of this specification: This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory requirements prior to use.
            1.5 The text of this specification contains notes or footnotes, or both, that provide explanatory material. Such notes and footnotes, excluding those in tables and figures, do not contain any mandatory requirements.
            First question...where did this come from as it is not listed?
            1.1 Note 2 The term nominal wall thickness has been assigned for the purpose of convenient designation, existing in name only, and is used to distinguish it from the actual wall thickness, which may vary over or under the nominal wall thickness.

            This means we don't know. and gonna pass the buck.

            This abstract is a brief summary of the referenced standard. It is informational only and not an official part of the standard; the full text of the standard itself must be referred to for its use and application. ASTM does not give any warranty express or implied or make any representation that the contents of this abstract are accurate, complete or up to date.

            ASTM takes no responsibliity...

            My daughter is missing...back later

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            • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

              She has been found. Missing almost 2 hours with a Girl Scout camping experience. They left late and the leaders ran the cell batteries dry.

              Back to pulling the codes apart.

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              • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post

                First question...where did this come from as it is not listed?
                1.1 Note 2 The term nominal wall thickness has been assigned for the purpose of convenient designation, existing in name only, and is used to distinguish it from the actual wall thickness, which may vary over or under the nominal wall thickness.

                This means we don't know. and gonna pass the buck.

                This abstract is a brief summary of the referenced standard. It is informational only and not an official part of the standard; the full text of the standard itself must be referred to for its use and application. ASTM does not give any warranty express or implied or make any representation that the contents of this abstract are accurate, complete or up to date.

                ASTM takes no responsibliity...

                My daughter is missing...back later
                I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Unless a Schedule nomenclature is used, all plumbing pipes are NPS. As for the Abstract, it is exactly what it purports to be and you need to buy the Standard if you want the Standard. Why in the World would ASTM or anyone else guarantee a free Abstract as a complete Standard?

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                  Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                  She has been found. Missing almost 2 hours with a Girl Scout camping experience. They left late and the leaders ran the cell batteries dry.

                  Back to pulling the codes apart.
                  I'm glad your daughter was okay.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                    Yes, glad to hear she's found. The standards have always had some give & take in them because the manufacturing process is not all that precise ( nor does it need to be ) for pipe materials used in non hazardous locations ( I suppose you could try and make a case for gas delivery but the powers that be have decided this long ago) The posted reference comes from NFPA's web site listing standards and the associations commentary regarding such. Again though, you can only nit pick to a point and we can sure as hell argue the merits of differing materials until we all decide to either give it up or go to war. Like I said above, just because a material is listed and approved does not necessarily make it desirable. I do not use sharkbites, pro-press, aav's, pex, csst, abs plastic, and a host of other products that though they meet code, I am not comfortable with using them. I am all for debate on these and any other subject but I think we need to keep it at debate and not let insults and accusations fly. I am truly sorry that your documentation and licensed qualifications were called into the argument because we are not talking about procedure here, we are debating material choice. A subject that an unlicensed engineer would have as much credibility as any one of us in discussing.
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                    • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Unless a Schedule nomenclature is used, all plumbing pipes are NPS. As for the Abstract, it is exactly what it purports to be and you need to buy the Standard if you want the Standard. Why in the World would ASTM or anyone else guarantee a free Abstract as a complete Standard?

                      Mark
                      My point is that not one person has proven the galvy process is not a bonded metal process, because it is. As being such the process does fall to the code given and does not meet the code as a bonding material of temperature.

                      If the tests described in the abstract were actually done, then I would not have seen the failures I have and with such frequency.

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                      • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                        Originally posted by Kevin Jones View Post
                        My point is that not one person has proven the galvy process is not a bonded metal process, because it is. As being such the process does fall to the code given and does not meet the code as a bonding material of temperature.

                        If the tests described in the abstract were actually done, then I would not have seen the failures I have and with such frequency.
                        Of course no one as disproved it either as no one wants to pony up the money to buy a 22-page Standard. However, I would disagree the pipe coating is factored into the melting point of the pipe.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                          As I read it, the pipe itself must meet the standard before it is coated. That makes the coating irrelevant to the process. Regardless though, the applicable codes that apply to gas piping all list galvanized as being acceptable to use. There is no addendum that specifies the coating method that must be used nor testing the pipe after coating. Remember also though that Xray testing will reveal flaws in the pipe regardless of the coating.
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                          • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                            What is written and what is real are two different worlds. If the pipe tested whole before the process and then was coated...there would be fewer leaks afterwards, by experience in the field. The post procedure testing would make more sense because the bonding agent would fill a joint. Even still there are failures more frequent than black iron, per my experience.

                            NH I have seen so many bad fittings over the years that I would have a hard time believing they are actually tested. The standards I have seen say they are not.

                            If I haven't said so...then yes galvy is legal per NFPA, IFGC, IPC, UBC, MICKEY and MOUSE. I have said the codes pass the buck to a point that nobody here is willing to buckup to. I have said the codes are wrong by their own standards and intent, the code contradicts itself by nature of any potential joining that DOES OCCUR...and is therefore subject to NFPA code as given and to its intent.

                            It is a choice of the installer secondary to local code.

                            I also think this pipe has bigger issues with dirty gas and causing coating flake as mentioned before. I am not focusing on that side of the topic as the areas that have those issues...do not allow it any way.

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                            • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                              So I guess the subject has been thoroughly thrashed about with no definite conclusion which is about what I expected from the get go. The guys that are comfortable with galvanized are probably going to continue to use it regardless of the concerns and warnings that you have brought to light. Much the same can be said for many other products that we have debated. A quick search of the word PEX will find you some pretty heated debates ( OK bloody arguments ) along with many other products. However, I do note your concern and can see where if pipe is not inspected the coating could indeed mask deeper flaws in the material. It is a moot point for me as we are not allowed to pipe gas with galvanized.
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                              • Re: Black or Galvy Gas Pipe?

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                So I guess the subject has been thoroughly thrashed about with no definite conclusion which is about what I expected from the get go. The guys that are comfortable with galvanized are probably going to continue to use it regardless of the concerns and warnings that you have brought to light. Much the same can be said for many other products that we have debated. A quick search of the word PEX will find you some pretty heated debates ( OK bloody arguments ) along with many other products. However, I do note your concern and can see where if pipe is not inspected the coating could indeed mask deeper flaws in the material. It is a moot point for me as we are not allowed to pipe gas with galvanized.
                                My definite conclusion is that it is a poor selection for pipe and should not be recommended for use inside a permanent structure, per my experience. A fire inside a structure is subject to higher temperatures in a shorter period of time and there by subject to a greater potential of premature failure in a shorter period of time. This equals an increased possibility of decreased time for evacuation in a commercial building that is piped completely in galvy.

                                I really didn't think this was an issue until I came to this site. I have seen the use of this pipe being glorified and mistakenly so. To suggest that by mere installation of this pipe we can omit IFCG and not protect the pipe at the threads is over confident and irresponsible. My opinion based on fact as I see it and code as has been presented.
                                Last edited by Kevin Jones; 06-27-2010, 09:32 PM.

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