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Sewage pump - kickback

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  • #16
    Re: Sewage pump - kickback

    Have to see it, but I think I would go steel on the verticals with water hammer check valves.

    J.C.

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    • #17
      Re: Sewage pump - kickback

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
      Have to see it, but I think I would go steel on the verticals with water hammer check valves.

      J.C.
      I was thinking the same thing, though in leiu of steel i may recommend 3" sch. 80 plastic threaded w/ sch 120 pressure fittings on vertical as well as doubling up the bracing. I am a fan of unistrut with cushioned clamps.

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      • #18
        Re: Sewage pump - kickback

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        Never said foamcore was an acceptable material to use, and stated that in an early post.

        We don't know if foamcore was used or schedule 40 PVC DWV in this situation. By the responses I'm seeing..some people must not realize there is a difference between foamcore DWV and schedule 40 PVC DWV.

        A building sewer might be under constant pressure..but not the type of pressure a water main would give, and people are losing sight of that.
        Take a look at this pump system. Its a fine system and I have installed several of these. never should you pipe a forced sewer main(under constant pressure) with foamcore pipe or dwv fittings. pressure pipe and pressure fittings only. The pump in the link below blew a 2" fernco cap that was on damn tight about 60' in the air.....guy from the city turn the valve off while the pump was running.

        http://www.femyers.com/products/sse/sse_mrg20sys.html

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        • #19
          Re: Sewage pump - kickback

          I stand (or lie on the couch) corrected.

          The links didn't really say much in and of themselves, but after some digging astm d 2665, to which dwv conforms, according to it's abstract DOES have a burst pressure rating (though I'm not willing to pay $38 to buy the standard to see what it is). The pressure fittings I'm more comfortable with apparently conform to astm d 2466, which, again, I'm not willing to buy the standard to see what the pressure rating is.

          So, my bad, there is a burst pressure rating associated with solid core dwv. Don't know what it is, or if there are any service pressure ratings, but there is a burst pressure rating.

          Nonetheless, I'll stand by that when I see them blown up, they are dwv fittings, which may be, just as you say, more because of movement than because of pressure.

          Regardless, I'm not putting a pump behind a dwv fitting when a pressure fitting has twice the engagement and a thincker wall and costs almost nothing more.

          If anyone's got copies of the standards showing pressure ratings, like service pressures, not burst pressures, I'd be very interested to see what they are.
          This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

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          • #20
            Re: Sewage pump - kickback

            Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
            I stand (or lie on the couch) corrected.

            The links didn't really say much in and of themselves, but after some digging astm d 2665, to which dwv conforms, according to it's abstract DOES have a burst pressure rating (though I'm not willing to pay $38 to buy the standard to see what it is). The pressure fittings I'm more comfortable with apparently conform to astm d 2466, which, again, I'm not willing to buy the standard to see what the pressure rating is.

            So, my bad, there is a burst pressure rating associated with solid core dwv. Don't know what it is, or if there are any service pressure ratings, but there is a burst pressure rating.

            Nonetheless, I'll stand by that when I see them blown up, they are dwv fittings, which may be, just as you say, more because of movement than because of pressure.

            Regardless, I'm not putting a pump behind a dwv fitting when a pressure fitting has twice the engagement and a thincker wall and costs almost nothing more.

            If anyone's got copies of the standards showing pressure ratings, like service pressures, not burst pressures, I'd be very interested to see what they are.
            I think charlotte says that foamcore not for pressure pipe can be TESTED with XX psi. I will try to look it up and get an answer for you. check back in a few. I doubt it will have a pressure rating for "not for pressure" pipe.

            ADD> Ok charlotte says foamcore can be tested to 10' of head pressure (4.3psi). They also say that it is possible for leakage to happen through the foam layer......I dont think it would be very good pipe for a pressurized forced main.
            Last edited by TheMaster; 09-01-2010, 09:44 PM. Reason: update

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            • #21
              Re: Sewage pump - kickback

              Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
              I stand (or lie on the couch) corrected.

              The links didn't really say much in and of themselves, but after some digging astm d 2665, to which dwv conforms, according to it's abstract DOES have a burst pressure rating (though I'm not willing to pay $38 to buy the standard to see what it is). The pressure fittings I'm more comfortable with apparently conform to astm d 2466, which, again, I'm not willing to buy the standard to see what the pressure rating is.

              So, my bad, there is a burst pressure rating associated with solid core dwv. Don't know what it is, or if there are any service pressure ratings, but there is a burst pressure rating.

              Nonetheless, I'll stand by that when I see them blown up, they are dwv fittings, which may be, just as you say, more because of movement than because of pressure.

              Regardless, I'm not putting a pump behind a dwv fitting when a pressure fitting has twice the engagement and a thincker wall and costs almost nothing more.

              If anyone's got copies of the standards showing pressure ratings, like service pressures, not burst pressures, I'd be very interested to see what they are.
              Totally disagree.

              If you actually read the links and navigated the website..you would of saw what they say about "strength" of PVC pipe. With your logic people would be installing copper or steel in residential applications for sewer ejectors. But you didn't want to navigate the website and find out for yourself cause your ego is hurt. It's clearly spelled out, and I'm not sure where the communication breakdown is occurring for you.

              PVC DWV would be outlawed in every code if what you say is true regarding ejectors. Most residential ejector pumps go into gravity drains inside the home, or pumped outside and up to the main "gravity" sewer.

              Fittings is a whole different animal, and every situation is different...and that's not what's in question.

              You stated early in this thread that DWV PVC is not for sewer ejector situations..and you were wrong and got called out on it..as you should of been. I'm not the one who typed that silliness...you did, and I'm just repeating and trying to educate you on what you said wrong.

              But I might agree that big commercial buildings with sewer ejectors might want to use a different material, as I'm sure codes dictate what needs to be used.

              All pipes have pressure ratings F.Y.I.

              If you want to be obtuse...knock yourself out. If I can sit here and be corrected on something I "thought I knew" (in other threads) and take it like a man..I'm sure you can too. I've learned so much by being here a few short months from different walks of life in this trade, and I've been in this trade my entire life, and I don't know it all.

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              • #22
                Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                wow
                This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                  Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                  wow
                  Ace - let me ask you a question, and I'm NOT trying to be a smart a$$ here k? I'm trying to understand your thought process here.

                  I see that you're a drain tech with 6 years of experience. Are you a licensed Plumber as well? What knowledge do you have of the different Plumbing codes, and knowledge and design of Plumbing systems?

                  If you go into a customers house and see an ejector pit (for a bathroom) in the basement of their home, and see it's pipe in 2" schedule 40 PVC "DWV" and pumped into the main "gravity" sewer line, in your best educated guess..is that legal or not?

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                  • #24
                    Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                    This contributes nothing to answering the original question, it's degenerated into personal attack, and I'll not paticipate in it further.
                    This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                      a real plumbing inspector will not accept no hub pipe and fittings for pumps. although i see it all the time. with proper support and bracing, along with the husky bands, they tend to hold together. it's the slamming of the check valve that creates the shock wave that causes the system to come apart.

                      a plumbing inspector that goes by the code out here will require pressure rated pipe and fittings. that's where gal pipe and victaulic fittings come in handy. kind of goes together like no hub pipe.

                      copper dwv is also legal, but it rots out when exposed to kitchen waste and grease.

                      plastic for the most part is only used in 2 story and less buildings.

                      move the 2- 3'' check valves up to the horizontal location and the problem is solved.

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

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                      • #26
                        Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                        Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                        I think charlotte says that foamcore not for pressure pipe can be TESTED with XX psi. I will try to look it up and get an answer for you. check back in a few. I doubt it will have a pressure rating for "not for pressure" pipe.

                        ADD> Ok charlotte says foamcore can be tested to 10' of head pressure (4.3psi). They also say that it is possible for leakage to happen through the foam layer......I dont think it would be very good pipe for a pressurized forced main.

                        Thanks, but I think that is not the question; I think no-one disagrees that foam core pipe is inappropriate, and that solid core sch whatever is fine in it's pressure range. Commonly however, I see regular dwv fittings used, which I had always thought was incorrect as, as far as I knew, there is no pressure rating for those. They often work fine, but I think only because the pressure is minimal in most installations. When I've seen failed ones, it's in higher head applications or bigger pipe or both.

                        From flux's link, I gather that they conform to astm d 2665, which according to http://www.astm.org/Standards/D2665.htm, 'shall be subject to hydrostatic burst testing'. Interested to find out if that means there is a service pressure rating as well, and if so what it is, as it'll be news to me.
                        This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                          Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                          Thanks, but I think that is not the question; I think no-one disagrees that foam core pipe is inappropriate, and that solid core sch whatever is fine in it's pressure range. Commonly however, I see regular dwv fittings used, which I had always thought was incorrect as, as far as I knew, there is no pressure rating for those. They often work fine, but I think only because the pressure is minimal in most installations. When I've seen failed ones, it's in higher head applications or bigger pipe or both.

                          From flux's link, I gather that they conform to astm d 2665, which according to http://www.astm.org/Standards/D2665.htm, 'shall be subject to hydrostatic burst testing'. Interested to find out if that means there is a service pressure rating as well, and if so what it is, as it'll be news to me.
                          Piping out an ejector pump the way I describe is a "non-pressurized" situation. There for using DWV fittings it absolutely appropriate when tying into the main drain in the home. It's the same concept as piping out a sump pump to the outside. The only constant "pressurized" situation in both is left on the flapper in the check valve.

                          If a main drain backs up in the home and it's PVC schedule 40 DWV..are the fittings under some sort of "pressure"? The point is..there is always some type of "pressure" inside a Plumbing system, regardless if it's an ejector pump or gravity.

                          But they key is using the words "pressure" and "pressurized" in the right way, and knowing which material to use for that specific situation.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                            I took a video of the setup to help show what i'm dealing with. I've also included a video of the bang associated with the problem.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                              I see DWV fittings

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                              • #30
                                Re: Sewage pump - kickback

                                I see DWV fittings used all the time on sewerage ejector pumps. Never Foam core pipe though.
                                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                                Ron's Facebook
                                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

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