Announcement

Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flushometer help

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Flushometer help

    I own a NYC apartment and as part of a DIY bathroom renovation I need to take my toilet out to retile the floor.

    this is my toilet



    this is my set up. I believe it to be a SLOAN GEM (not GEM 2) flushometer.



    I have the instal instructions for a GEM 2 but cannot find anywhere the exploded diagrams for an old style GEM system.

    I do not have access to the main water shutoff valve to my building, so to take the toilet out I will need to close the control stop (I believe (A) in my picture). And even if I did, I cannot turn the water off to the other 40 apartments in the building to get this job done.

    I have a few questions:

    1) is it (reasonably) safe to rely on the control stop to turn off the flow while removing the toilet, and leaving it closed for a few days until I can put the toilet back in?

    2) for the GEM 2 there is a spud cover that comes off to reveal a slot style turn-off-valve to adjust the control stop with a screw driver. Mine is an older style GEM, is the control stop just a nut that needs to be turned ((A) in my picture)?

    3) The tail piece coupling ((B) in my photo), is this all I need to detach in order to remove my toilet, or do I have to remove the whole valve assembly from the back spud in the toilet (G)?

    4) How reliable are these systems? I assume this valve is close to 40 years old. By turning off the water to the valve do I risk inducing failure?


    I really appreciate any insight here. I have not dealt with a setup like this before, however, I am very handy, I just need a little guidance and perhaps a little assurance.

  • #2
    Re: Flushometer help

    A. is where your shut off is.

    You probably will have to loosen or take off E-F-G to remove the toilet, the rest can just hang there.

    KEEP IN MIND THAT A VALVE THAT OLD MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE SHUT OFF, IF YOU NEED PARTS THEY MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE!

    I think for safety reasons you should check for a valve that shuts off your unit only, even somthing that old was usually plumbed with individual valves.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Flushometer help

      Originally posted by shacko View Post
      A. is where your shut off is.

      You probably will have to loosen or take off E-F-G to remove the toilet, the rest can just hang there.

      KEEP IN MIND THAT A VALVE THAT OLD MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE SHUT OFF, IF YOU NEED PARTS THEY MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE!

      I think for safety reasons you should check for a valve that shuts off your unit only, even somthing that old was usually plumbed with individual valves.
      Thank you very much for your response.

      I have a cold water shutoff for the apartment but it does not shut off the toilet, unless there is a valve hidden in the wall between the feeder pipe and the main line.

      I took up a tile and found cement board and very new looking 5/8th plywood subfloor which leads me to believe that the toilet has been disconnected in the last 5 years (the previous owner told me he redid the floor and he owned the place between 2005 and 2008.

      My biggest worry is valve failure, I know that old valves can have packing problems, however, are you aware how these particular valves work, and has anyone ever experienced a valve failure in a sloan flushometer before? From what I can tell these things were designed to last.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Flushometer help

        Also, am I correct in assuming (B) is a coupling that once backed off would allow me the clearance to remove the whole setup without having to take it all apart?

        here is the assembly instructions for the GEM 2 - I assume the design is similar for the GEM 1 only the internal valves are different.

        To me it looks like (B) or (E) would get the job done for me, I really don't want to mess with (G) since it looks like it has been in place for ever and is the actual connection to the toilet.

        I was also thinking that closing the control stop, then disconnecting the system after the main flush valve at (E) would leave me two valves connected between air and the open line. I think this is what I will try. Unless anyone has any better idea for me.
        Last edited by JJJAAAMMM; 12-12-2010, 09:34 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Flushometer help

          JJJAAAMMM!

          You definitely do NOT have a Gem2 instead it looks like a real early first generation GEM. I reside in Rego Park with multiple flushometers in all my three (3) baths. Bought the house over 35 years ago and have replaced all the Gems Gems to Sloan Royals due to the fact they are just more reliable over the Gems. Gems are smaller which is why they have smaller diaphrams assemblies which is why they fail more often over the Royals/Regals. And this is provided you can find replacement Gem diaphrams at the local distributors (Davis&Warshaw, Blackman, etc). If you are able to temporarily shut off the water for even just 20 minutes I would replace with a complete Sloan Royal kit from the actual shutoff valve all the way to your 1-1/4 inch tailpiece going into the spud on the commode. The goods news is if you search on eBay you can get a complete Sloan Royral (make sure modify your actual flushometer to the 3.5 or 4.5 gallon/flush as it appears your commode is not a high efficiency bowl) kit. Either Royal or Regal will work but I prefer Royal as the finish and materials are better. If your lucky you can get a complete new Royal slushometer kit for $40 plus shipping...they normally retail for $150 or higher at Blackman or Davis& Warshaw.

          I'm surprised your Gem has laster this long as the flimsy diaphrams usually last no more than a year or so before they fail. Classic failure is a continual flush with continuous water entering the bowl. Finally if you do go with "new" be sure and swap out the spud washer also since you only want to do the job once and make sure you do NOT overtighten the spud locknut too tight or else you will crack the backside of the bowl.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Flushometer help

            Undo and remove the cover over stop tap (A) get a screw driver or spanner turning clockwise to shut off cold water supply (A), putting a pair of grips on (A) and another on (B) and holding pressure on (A) undo nut on (B) and then the nut on (E) and also holding pressure in the opposite direction as you loosen the nut.
            I wish to empress to be vary carefull when working on (A) as you don`t know if the supply in the wall is galvanised pipe or copper and any extra pressure placed on this shut off valve without holding a pair of grips in the opposite direction while unscrewing the nut (B) my disloge it and cause a leak

            Tony

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Flushometer help

              Originally posted by AFM View Post
              Undo and remove the cover over stop tap (A) get a screw driver or spanner turning clockwise to shut off cold water supply (A), putting a pair of grips on (A) and another on (B) and holding pressure on (A) undo nut on (B) and then the nut on (E) and also holding pressure in the opposite direction as you loosen the nut.
              I wish to empress to be vary carefull when working on (A) as you don`t know if the supply in the wall is galvanised pipe or copper and any extra pressure placed on this shut off valve without holding a pair of grips in the opposite direction while unscrewing the nut (B) my disloge it and cause a leak

              Tony
              So that is a cover over (A)? I know the GEM 2s have a cover but I could not tell if what I have is a cover with the turn valve under it, or if it is the actual valve itself.

              I will be very careful to not torque the supply line.

              Also, should I be able to rely on the control stop valve, I was wondering if anyone in their experience has had one fail, I am just worried about flooding since I do not have access to a main shutoff.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Flushometer help

                Originally posted by swong View Post
                JJJAAAMMM!

                You definitely do NOT have a Gem2 instead it looks like a real early first generation GEM. I reside in Rego Park with multiple flushometers in all my three (3) baths. Bought the house over 35 years ago and have replaced all the Gems Gems to Sloan Royals due to the fact they are just more reliable over the Gems. Gems are smaller which is why they have smaller diaphrams assemblies which is why they fail more often over the Royals/Regals. And this is provided you can find replacement Gem diaphrams at the local distributors (Davis&Warshaw, Blackman, etc). If you are able to temporarily shut off the water for even just 20 minutes I would replace with a complete Sloan Royal kit from the actual shutoff valve all the way to your 1-1/4 inch tailpiece going into the spud on the commode. The goods news is if you search on eBay you can get a complete Sloan Royral (make sure modify your actual flushometer to the 3.5 or 4.5 gallon/flush as it appears your commode is not a high efficiency bowl) kit. Either Royal or Regal will work but I prefer Royal as the finish and materials are better. If your lucky you can get a complete new Royal slushometer kit for $40 plus shipping...they normally retail for $150 or higher at Blackman or Davis& Warshaw.

                I'm surprised your Gem has laster this long as the flimsy diaphrams usually last no more than a year or so before they fail. Classic failure is a continual flush with continuous water entering the bowl. Finally if you do go with "new" be sure and swap out the spud washer also since you only want to do the job once and make sure you do NOT overtighten the spud locknut too tight or else you will crack the backside of the bowl.
                I would love to replace this bad boy with a more robust and newer model, and if so I might as well replace the bowl as well. I am afraid, however, that if I replace this, it will not fit and I would have to modify the connections. Also this toilet I believe is an american standard split tank from the 50's that was modified to take the flushometer from the rear spud placement. The rough-in appears to be at 13" and I am not sure what implications that has for a replacement.

                What it comes down to is that I do not want to be without a toilet for more than a day (this is my only bathroom) and I also don't want to open myself to a catastrophic event that inconveniences all my neighbors, especially the ones below me.

                Living in NYC doing this bathroom reno myself is saving me thousands of dollars, but I also don't want to bight off more than I can chew.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Flushometer help

                  After turning off the stop as indicated by AFM, push the trip lever. You will know right away if the stop works. If it does then no problem. Loosen "A" and disconnect "E" and tilt the valve enough to remove the tail piece (if you have that kind of room between the valve and wall.
                  If the stop is not working then you will have to make arrangements to shut off the water to the apartment.
                  "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Flushometer help

                    Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
                    After turning off the stop as indicated by AFM, push the trip lever. You will know right away if the stop works. If it does then no problem. Loosen "A" and disconnect "E" and tilt the valve enough to remove the tail piece (if you have that kind of room between the valve and wall.
                    If the stop is not working then you will have to make arrangements to shut off the water to the apartment.
                    okay so as long as I turn off the control stop and no water flushes I should feel confident in the valve? I was thinking of leaving the main flush valve connected to the control stop and disconnecting the setup after that series, just as an extra precaution.

                    Also, do I have to worry about the control valve leaking itself at all, kinda like how a water shutoff can leak from the packing nut or stem?

                    I think I should be fine, I am just nervous because this stuff is old and not having a toilet would suck, also, I think I should mention that I would never hear the end of it from my wife is something went wrong.

                    Also, anyone have advice on how to drain the bowl after the valve is shut off, since there is no reserve tank?
                    Last edited by JJJAAAMMM; 12-13-2010, 01:02 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Flushometer help

                      Also, anyone have advice on how to drain the bowl after the valve is shut off, since there is no reserve tank?
                      Shop vac

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Flushometer help

                        Originally posted by JJJAAAMMM View Post
                        okay so as long as I turn off the control stop and no water flushes I should feel confident in the valve? I was thinking of leaving the main flush valve connected to the control stop and disconnecting the setup after that series, just as an extra precaution.

                        Also, do I have to worry about the control valve leaking itself at all, kinda like how a water shutoff can leak from the packing nut or stem?

                        I think I should be fine, I am just nervous because this stuff is old and not having a toilet would suck, also, I think I should mention that I would never hear the end of it from my wife is something went wrong.

                        Also, anyone have advice on how to drain the bowl after the valve is shut off, since there is no reserve tank?
                        If the stop works and you've pushed the trip lever to confirm it, then there is nothing to leak. There will be some water that will drain out of the valve when you tilt it to remove the tailpiece below "E".
                        However; as mentioned earlier, if the diaphragm is old, turning the water off and on may cause it to fail. It would then flush continuously.
                        Yes, plumbing can suck.
                        "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Flushometer help

                          Okay, the one last question I have about the control stop...



                          Is that a cap that is covering a screwdriver stop, or is that the actual turn wheel? I am a bit confused because in all the Sloan documentation I can find, there are no caps that look like that (even on the obsolete models).

                          Thanks guys

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Flushometer help

                            I agree with keeping the flushometer valve "intact" as a backup valve.

                            I would NEVER take this apart unless you know how to get to a main shut off very quickly in case the ^%@$% hits the fan, which it WILL!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Flushometer help

                              Originally posted by swong View Post
                              JJJAAAMMM!

                              If your lucky you can get a complete new Royal slushometer kit for $40 plus shipping...
                              real real lucky.
                              This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X