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Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

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  • #16
    Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

    Though it pains me to agree, Rick is right. The battle is lost on this one as it has been lost on others in the past. PEX has become a product that contractors and homeowners not ask for by name. Those of you wishing to totally avoid it will have to stick with commercial and industrial work and even there, it's starting to show up.
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    • #17
      Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

      I plan to use it were ever I can . For me if its existing copper repair under 5 feet than its pro press with copper over that p.e.x. it is. Much cheaper and in my opinion a better pipe. And why solder when you can make joints in 7 sec. with propress ? And try and cut some old c.p.v.c. better bring your hacksaw or jaw saw other wise you are going to crack it. P.e.x. just seems like a better material to me freeze resistant , cuts easy after its been installed , flexible , don't have to worry about it cracking if you drop it when its cold out. He!! you can hit it with a hammer and your not going to hurt it. Try and do that with c.p.v.c or copper. Don't have to worry about how good your glue is or glue clogging ballcocks or faucets. Or how long are you going to wait till you turn the water back on? Most likely you aren't going to wait 24 hours . Lots of guys out here use that crap but I don't think many have had to work with it after it has been installed.

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      • #18
        Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

        Originally posted by Clipper City Plumber View Post
        I plan to use it were ever I can . For me if its existing copper repair under 5 feet than its pro press with copper over that p.e.x. it is. Much cheaper and in my opinion a better pipe. And why solder when you can make joints in 7 sec. with propress ? And try and cut some old c.p.v.c. better bring your hacksaw or jaw saw other wise you are going to crack it. P.e.x. just seems like a better material to me freeze resistant , cuts easy after its been installed , flexible , don't have to worry about it cracking if you drop it when its cold out. He!! you can hit it with a hammer and your not going to hurt it. Try and do that with c.p.v.c or copper. Don't have to worry about how good your glue is or glue clogging ballcocks or faucets. Or how long are you going to wait till you turn the water back on? Most likely you aren't going to wait 24 hours . Lots of guys out here use that crap but I don't think many have had to work with it after it has been installed.
        Not very freeze resistant around here! On some of the freeze up calls poor insulation was to blame.
        Rod
        MT. Washington Sewer & Drain Cleaning
        Serving Berlin, NH and North Conway, NH areas
        http://unclognh.com
        http://mtwashingtonseweranddrainclea...m/default.aspx

        Charging less does not mean more call volume it just means you have to work harder to reach your goals.

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        • #19
          Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

          Freeze break resistance

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          • #20
            Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

            Copper may not seem like a skill in new construction...but in the repair service side I think it most definitely is. Service is all I do and I can tell you that a lot of my older customers specifically want copper repairs made. I think there is a lot of skill soldering in an enclosed wall or upside down or on joints you can't even see without catching the house on fire. Now don't get me wrong...if customer doesn't ask then I will make the best repair in the most efficient time frame allowed. Pex is now allowed in this area...and yes it looks horrible if installed quickly but if time and care is taken than its not too bad...copper will always look better. But in this day and age people want cheap and fast...so I think its educating the customer. If you like copper then teach them why its better (and don't use M for goodness sake). If you like pex then take your damn time! I don't know which is better or worse but this is a small thought from me....
            Poor Planning On Your Part Does Not Constitute An Emergency On My Part!!
            You can fire me...but you can't tell me what to do!

            Derek

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            • #21
              Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

              people want cheap and fast
              Yes they do but they are also paying for your expertise. YOU are the one with years of experience in the trade having been exposed to various materials in different settings and applications. YO"U are the one that should know what works where and what does not.

              YOU need to convince them of what is the right material for the job AND you have to be able to explain it to them so that they will understand why.

              In another thread someone asked everyone a bunch of questions relating to the trade. I did not respond because I am retired from the trade now. But in reading everyones comments I saw things like you feel disrespected for your knowledge and experience. Well if you don't use it who knows you have it? If you give your customers what they want (assuming they are people with little knowledge of the trade) without selling them on the virtues of better materials and skills required to install then how will they know what is better or how can they compare the difference in price between your copper repair and the hack with a roll of PEX under his arm?

              All they have to go on is the crap they see on the DIY channels, and those are all driven by whoever is underwriting the show. So if the American PEX Producers Association (fictitious organization) is paying the freight what do you think they are going to push in the show...PEX of course. If it was Copper.org that was behind the show financially then they would be pushing copper.
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
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              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
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              • #22
                It's the same product, just a different color folks

                Originally posted by dcman View Post
                Copper may not seem like a skill in new construction...but in the repair service side I think it most definitely is. Service is all I do and I can tell you that a lot of my older customers specifically want copper repairs made. I think there is a lot of skill soldering in an enclosed wall or upside down or on joints you can't even see without catching the house on fire. Now don't get me wrong...if customer doesn't ask then I will make the best repair in the most efficient time frame allowed. Pex is now allowed in this area...and yes it looks horrible if installed quickly but if time and care is taken than its not too bad...copper will always look better. But in this day and age people want cheap and fast...so I think its educating the customer. If you like copper then teach them why its better (and don't use M for goodness sake). If you like pex then take your damn time! I don't know which is better or worse but this is a small thought from me....

                Dcman gets best post on this subject.



                Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                Yes they do but they are also paying for your expertise. YOU are the one with years of experience in the trade having been exposed to various materials in different settings and applications. YO"U are the one that should know what works where and what does not.

                YOU need to convince them of what is the right material for the job AND you have to be able to explain it to them so that they will understand why.

                In another thread someone asked everyone a bunch of questions relating to the trade. I did not respond because I am retired from the trade now. But in reading everyones comments I saw things like you feel disrespected for your knowledge and experience. Well if you don't use it who knows you have it? If you give your customers what they want (assuming they are people with little knowledge of the trade) without selling them on the virtues of better materials and skills required to install then how will they know what is better or how can they compare the difference in price between your copper repair and the hack with a roll of PEX under his arm?

                All they have to go on is the crap they see on the DIY channels, and those are all driven by whoever is underwriting the show. So if the American PEX Producers Association (fictitious organization) is paying the freight what do you think they are going to push in the show...PEX of course. If it was Copper.org that was behind the show financially then they would be pushing copper.

                I've always respected your opinion on these boards Bob because you know the ropes of long term thinking, always. It's a fast buck society and some of us definitely understand the back side of the equation.


                I remember when I'd do a job and soft rolled copper was used on a job. It looked horrible, it went in fast, connect end to end and cover it up. It's done.

                Then I'm the guy who has to get back into that system, redirect, make repairs, and the pipe is ovalled, can't get a fitting on it because of the roll of the piping that changed the O.D. of the pipe.

                There's no doubt that copper is in exit mode in the industry. That's not why I posted this subject.

                I fit into the same exact scenario as dcman in regards to service.


                When I hear a professional say, "Copper started deteriorating, only lasted 15 years" I instantly think two things:

                Codes in your area approved a piping that at one time could be installed and never have to be touched for 70-80 years, like the aging systems in my area and Cincinnati Ohio that will outlive human life in most cases.

                Secondly, we know that water chemistry/makeup was to blame and instead of countering that problem, that we all know just doesn't affect just the trunk lines in the equation...


                You're masking it by bringing another product in to cover it up.


                Because none of you are obviously making the statement, "I'm also removing any faucet with copper components." <<< Never gets said. Take a Delta 522MPU that has those 1' long copper tubes made to direct connect to isolation valves.

                90% of my underground water line breaks are plastic. <<< Steady stream of them in spring and fall, when ground movement is most common, all because the plumber saved a buck and sold it to chuck.

                Since "PVC" is the answer to the big bad cast iron, vitrified clay in 2 and 4 foot sections,

                Why am I rodding a collapsed PVC sewer line not even 9 years old on tuesday night? That is now a dig job, property owner is furious that they now have to bring equipment back into the yard and do it twice.

                Speaking of doing it twice:

                PolyButylene
                BLUMAX
                CPVC
                KITEC
                DURAPEX - << Got people emailing me weekly on this garbage garden hose piping
                Failing Plastic Dip Tubes in Water Heaters back in the 90's

                I even joke around with customers, new and repeat ones, "Would you be upset if I switched your piping materials in your home, even though they work just fine the way they are, because I can use something faster and easier?"

                Some responses:

                "I'd ask you to leave"
                "I'd ask why you wanted to change what already works"

                Some of the copper fittings at Home Depot right now are $4 to $7 a fitting.

                This means you can buy a sharkbite now for $5.49 that's cheaper than a copper fitting that has to take skill to install properly through numerous steps.

                But the roll of pex to the right that'll do 100' of water line in the house is $22.

                Fittings, which are brass, not much over $2-$4 dollars.


                I'm already aware how the industry is pushing the copper industry out. They've had their hay day.


                But as long as I have people contacting me across the nation, victims of these piping material choices where the talent to install a garden hose is basically the same as running lazy mans pipe (PEX),

                I'm not touching an inch of this pipe till it has a comparable record of longevity, and no one becomes victims because they followed trending.


                Plumber Rick your analogy to wiring would stick if you would of mentioned aluminum wiring.

                If you remember (you're old enough) the manufactures of electrical wiring tried to utilize fast and easy, started using aluminum wiring that was light, fast, easy.

                That's until the small diameter wiring started burning down homes, disconnecting in the walls, ceasing the sales of homes because this wire was a threat to not only human life, but a death sentence to a home's value.

                They stopped the nonsense immediately... and copper wiring continued as it does today of being the proper material choice, the same as when it was used in knob and tube wiring systems.

                It wasn't the copper's fault, it was the jacket that would break off the wire and expose itself... and many knob and tube systems are used today.


                We as a nation, we as a people, or tradesmen are supposed to leave this world in a better place than when we arrived. I can almost put myself on a pedestal and shout from the rooftops,

                The plumbing profession is losing its skill level, and it's the material choices you put in your very hands that's to blame.


                I hear fast and easy, then I go to work and I'm working on nothing but the systems that worked decades without failure. And now comes lazy mans pipe that was scoffed at when it was ran in mobile homes,

                now you're throwing it in, in 6 hours in a $500-$1,000,000 home and calling it good?


                I have the emails still from the guy who ran PEX underground, to specification of the manufacture... a general contractor looking for answers in a 4 million dollar structure where the manufacture, in writing said it was "Otay Buckwheat!" to run hot and cold runs of PEX underground in a ditch to serve from one point of direction in a horse shoe home that was 15,000 square feet.


                What they found out "after" the fact:


                They was having to set the temperature of the hot water at 140 degrees to get 89 degrees to the furthest point.

                The piping was slowly disentegrating throughout because the recirculating pump had the piping consistently elevated.

                The cold water? It's not cold; water temperatures were elevated due to thermal loss coming from the close proximity of the hot.

                Mind you,

                Manufacture stated this design was legal,

                Building inspector passed it

                ASSME

                ASTM passed this?

                Local Plumbing Authority passed it

                Everything about this pipe, was legal down to the mfg.


                And here is what this multi-million property owner now has for a luxury home:


                Over 2 dozen breaks, all of which involve exploratory diagnosis and 'limited' access into this monolific slab design. It's the high "above the recommended temperature" of the piping that's destroying it.

                There's no cold water in the home, it's all luke warm and sometime overly warm.

                They can't go overhead because of extreme heats in Texas.

                The engineers will not allow a repipe in the ground of this structure because that idea comprimises the integrity of the entire structure. They tried to see if they could make 4-8 points of entry into the floor, not accepted.

                I asked if they could go outside, bring into the structure, can't. Monolific slabs prevent that and you're now digging what is set on solid ground.


                The GC lost all profits on this property, and the only reason he contacte me was in relief of finding an answer or alternative to slow down the throat slit - full bleed out of terrible situation that the manufacture took a back seat and said we're liable, come get us.

                At a backflow meeting this last tuesday, a group of us seasoned plumbers were talking about piping materials... I asked if anyone used PEX piping 'yet'.


                Someone out of the group mentioned CPVC piping becoming the next Polybutylene disaster unfolding in the Northern Kentucky area.


                How do I know this?


                These piping systems are going 8 to 10 years and now they are starting to fall apart, leak, pinhole, crack, split horribly when they freeze. When they split from freezing, it builds a fan of water from one end to the joint to another, unlike copper that'll just pop a hole, small one.


                Knowing that piping materials and one idiot's choice to throw piping buried into a wall now creates the hardship of a homeowner that initially paid 8 grand for their plumbing sytem, but most likely $80,000 at the end of a 30 year mortgage....

                you all seemingly think you're innocent using these untested products before there are any tried and true factual statistics before they hold the distance of "reliable products and workmanship".


                You all stick with the fast, easy and uneducated.


                I'm consistently taking the high road in my profession without caving in to change and watching numerous piping systems that came to my area, fail.

                And my choices prevented me from being the bad guy who set the trip wires on the equation for the victim to take a fall. Naming, the property owner.

                Any reference to the UK is a falsehood because it's 2 different kinds of water chemistry. We have chlorinated water of elevated levels here... not a match.

                That's why numerous brands are falling apart, eating up the fittings.



                And do you know who reads my elongated responses more than you? The lawyer firms that keyworded the failing products looking for their paycheck, ready to take down anyone that had their hands on this piping when it fails.

                I might be premature on that statement, but think about the world of plastic and its history, up to this point.

                If I trained 3 people:

                An older woman with no plumbing experience

                An illegal immigrant here in the United States that knows little to no english

                and a plumbing apprentice with no education of anything plumbing but fetching parts...


                All three of them in 6 hours will be fully trained, running this pipe matching colors and understanding it's no different than hooking up garden hose INSIDE a house now.


                And you're proud to be a plumber, using this product?


                You need to be a victim of what plumbers are doing to property owners to understand the ramifications of your material choices or actions.

                But of course, you haven't, or you'd be more careful in what you're aligning yourselves with.


                Some of us just have more respect for this trade... it's obvious.
                Last edited by DUNBAR PLUMBING; 02-05-2011, 04:02 PM.
                Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                • #23
                  Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                  Meanwhile on earth,I will be doing bypasses with pex through the attic because of failed copper. Failed is failed and no matter the cause the customer has a problem that must be corrected.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                    I'm surprised that you are using Pex. A little further south in Florida, most plumbers are doing re-pipes with cpvc cause its cheaper.

                    Dunbar has a point though and lord I have been on that wagon as long as he has. Unfortunately though, nobody is listening and even fewer care. I don't know where the trade is heading. I suspect that wages will continue to stagnate for apprentices and journeymen as more and more illegal and legal immigrants move into the workplace. I doubt that anyone will argue that pex can be learned in less than an hour and so can many of the other materials on the market today. One thing I do know is that there is no going back. Copper has priced itself out of the market even though in this "green" environment it is far and away a more ecologically friendly product ( 100% recyclable ) So, to stay competitive and in business we must adapt and find ways to diversify our businesses.
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                    • #25
                      Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                      dunbar, i appreciate your concerns. but in all honesty, i would pipe my own house in pex water and pvc waste if i had to do it all over again.

                      16 years ago i piped it all in no hub waste and copper. with abs vents up.

                      nothing is wrong yet, but that's because it gets little use as far as a house goes.

                      but from 35 years in the field with new construction and service and repair with literally thousands and thousands of camera inspections and drain cleaning. i can honestly say and feel that copper and no hub are not fool proof or lifetime.

                      if they were, i wouldn't have invested so heavily in propress.

                      there will always be a need for copper/ metallic pipe here for water and waste. 90% of my new construction jobs were subterranean garages with exposed hanging piping. all done in copper, no hub and steel gas pipe.

                      until they come up with local codes that allow exposed plastic piping, it will remain that way.

                      but in my opinion, having plastic piping is not a negative. and i feel the positives outweigh the negatives by a long shot.

                      sorry i can't agree with you, but it's not a knowledge, skill or price thing. it's a product that when installed properly will outlast all of us. take for example hdpe yellow gas pipe. hdpe water and waste pipe. there is not 1 product that dares to compare to hdpe piping. and it doesn't take too much skill to set the temperature to 500 degrees and weld it.

                      cameras, pictured and videos don't lie. and neither do my invoices that show me where all my service work has been going towards.

                      sorry, i wish i was able to agree, but i'm having a hard time agreeing with you.

                      now how do you really feel about sectionals

                      rick.
                      phoebe it is

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                      • #26
                        Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                        I don't care for Pex either, but every single type of material available to us has some sort of drawback.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                          most of my plumbing career has been pvc and pex. when I repipe this house, which I intend to stay in for many years, i'll be doing copper and no-hub.

                          No material is trouble free, but I feel that a proper installation of copper and cast iron waste will give me the most years maintenance free.
                          No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Difference between Garden Hose and Pex Piping

                            Garden hose comes with ends on it?
                            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
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