Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

    Originally posted by Flux View Post
    I normally just say outside faucet, but hose bibb was on my brain this morning...cause that's what we grew up with.
    But that's my point, wall hydrants come with backflow protection, and why are we not double protecting them as well? It's almost like the people who write the code, don;t trust the backflow protection in the water back up pumps, which I think is ridiculous. Pull out spray heads have them as well, and we don't install secondary means for backflow.
    As was stated there is a big difference in the risk between a wall hydrant with a vaccuum breaker and a water-powered siphon jet pump. The pum is a direct cross connection so requires the highest level of protection. Doubling up (back to back) on BF devices can cause problem with their operation and is not recommended or practiced as far as I know. Can you name an application with back to back RPZs or Dual check devices?
    "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

    https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

      So If I lay a garden hose from my wall hydrant, to add water to my pool that has chlorine in it, is there a potential for a "direct" cross connection?

      Is the water that rises from the ground really considered waste water? If it is, we shouldn't be drinking well water.

      There is no difference between both examples..and that's the point.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        So If I lay a garden hose from my wall hydrant, to add water to my pool that has chlorine in it, is there a potential for a "direct" cross connection?

        Is the water that rises from the ground really considered waste water? If it is, we shouldn't be drinking well water.

        There is no difference between both examples..and that's the point.
        Pool fillers are supposed to be air gapped, or have an RPZ installed. So if you have a pool of substantial size that requires chlorine, you will either need to install a air gapped filler tube, or have an RPZ installed. Around here there are codes that need to be followed for pool installs.

        I have done work at places that have a large water pit with an auto filler float in it. When the water level get below the set point it adds water via a 2" pipe with a foot air gap.
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        Ron's Facebook
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
          Pool fillers are supposed to be air gapped, or have an RPZ installed. So if you have a pool of substantial size that requires chlorine, you will either need to install a air gapped filler tube, or have an RPZ installed. Around here there are codes that need to be followed for pool installs.

          I have done work at places that have a large water pit with an auto filler float in it. When the water level get below the set point it adds water via a 2" pipe with a foot air gap.
          Think about the millions of homes that still have the old style hose bibbs or wall hydrant without vacuum breakers.

          Having a secondary backflow device on a water back-up pump that already has one internally, and the device may never be called into action, is kind of extreme imo. The device doesn't even sit in any type of water unless the level of the pit is high and the primary pump fails. If it was that much of a danger to a cross connection, all plumbing codes would reflect that in their code, or they would outlaw them all together.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

            Originally posted by Flux View Post
            So If I lay a garden hose from my wall hydrant, to add water to my pool that has chlorine in it, is there a potential for a "direct" cross connection?

            Is the water that rises from the ground really considered waste water? If it is, we shouldn't be drinking well water.

            There is no difference between both examples..and that's the point.

            Yes. Absolutely. When that potable water leaves the end of that faucet, that water then becomes questionable or 'unknown' source that can be directly or indirectly be connected to contaminates.


            If there is no type of anti-siphon or design to prevent water from reentering the potable water supply, it is therefore deemed a contaminite of unknown quality.

            Potable water from a faucet, even though positive flow is deemed 'potable' by the water purveyor that sends the water to the property. Checks and balances proves that.


            When it starts being traded on the ground, ran through hoses, in direct contact with chemicals or ground water, unclean equipment, nobody can place that product (water) as 100% safe, or potable.



            Well water is a product that the end user of the product must produce proof that the water is safe for human use, and even though a lot of systems in private water can be compromised, it's what we don't know that can kill you.


            I spent my first years in plumbing understanding how people can take a large containment of water, never clean it or check it for safety, live without harm or injury knowing the water quality is either compromised or at the least, heavily flavored with contaminates like bird droppings, asphalt residue from shingles, debri or dead animal collections in the water/downspouts.

            But I'm not too sure of the heavy chemicals of the water that's piped to your home is safe either. I live in a cancer belt, our water is horrible in this area. The toxicity of certain chemicals, even though safe when leaving the water treatment plant indicates it took extensive treatment to return and send it to our faucets, tubs, valves.

            I've been a licensed backflow tester for years, great knowledge background on the subject matter. A lot of people, including plumbers don't understand the value of backflow protection and some go careers not believing positive flow systems can easily be contaminated.


            Happens... daily. Most case histories are never reported. Only the 'good' ones where major property damage or life related injuries get the most traction in the history books.
            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

              Back to this subject:



              If those water powered backup pumps had the efficiency of say a jetter? And it had like a 10:1 or 15:1 ratio?


              I'd be for the product with the correct backflow protection... but that's not what is offered. 1 gallon of water to pump 2 or 3 is quite a cost to water systems, and what if these units go into failure mode... costs?


              They are not built like a $5000 jetter with solid brass innards and high end/high pressure design. Simple venturi design that doesn't need to be really elaborate but at least get the ratio way up so the water is traded at a better rate of removal.
              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                Think about the millions of homes that still have the old style hose bibbs or wall hydrant without vacuum breakers.

                Having a secondary backflow device on a water back-up pump that already has one internally, and the device may never be called into action, is kind of extreme imo. The device doesn't even sit in any type of water unless the level of the pit is high and the primary pump fails. If it was that much of a danger to a cross connection, all plumbing codes would reflect that in their code, or they would outlaw them all together.
                I do not know about them having one internally. I mean heck look at The Guardian system they offer models with a duel check, RPZ, or a PVB, all depending on which device meets your local codes. As for the cross connection it would happen while the pump was running and a drop in the water pressure happens. It will then siphon the sump water into the potable water system.

                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                Ron's Facebook
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                  Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
                  I've been a licensed backflow tester for years, great knowledge background on the subject matter. A lot of people, including plumbers don't understand the value of backflow protection and some go careers not believing positive flow systems can easily be contaminated.


                  Happens... daily. Most case histories are never reported. Only the 'good' ones where major property damage or life related injuries get the most traction in the history books.
                  It's not that I don't take backflow seriously cause I do. It's just don't get this whole argument to back up a back up pump with backflow already installed in the unit, when there are far worst situations than a back-up pump that's already protected to begin with.

                  Btw..My buddy who I trade work with all the time, is bringing me in on job in where it takes about 4 hours to install 1 backflow preventer, and he has 4 or 5 of them to install. Obviously this is a commercial job, but is a 4 hour install even possible? When my father told me this morning my buddy needs me for a few days, I was like "how long does it take to install a backflow preventer, and why does he need me for that?". My buddy is an ex-Union Plumber so he's use to this stuff I've never seen before. I actually can't wait to go and help him, so I can learn something new here. I might take pictures.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                    Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                    I do not know about them having one internally. I mean heck look at The Guardian system they offer models with a duel check, RPZ, or a PVB, all depending on which device meets your local codes. As for the cross connection it would happen while the pump was running and a drop in the water pressure happens. It will then siphon the sump water into the potable water system.

                    Liberty and Zoeller have backflow device internally.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                      Originally posted by Flux View Post
                      Liberty and Zoeller have backflow device internally.
                      Show me please. If its a vacuum breaker, is it rated for pressure? If so is it testable? If its a vacuum breaker like the kind you find on a sillcock they are not rated to have a shut off valve after the the device.
                      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                      Ron's Facebook
                      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        Liberty and Zoeller have backflow device internally.
                        Well I looked at Zoeller's PDF, does not say anything about a backflow device installed but does state it may require an RPZ to be installed. https://app.qleapahead.com/rtp/libra...sset=106856,63

                        As for Liberty they claim to have a check valve.... A single check is not considered a proper backflow device. http://www.libertypumps.com/Data/Sal...e/SJ10Aweb.pdf
                        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                        Ron's Facebook
                        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                          Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                          Well I looked at Zoeller's PDF, does not say anything about a backflow device installed but does state it may require an RPZ to be installed. https://app.qleapahead.com/rtp/libra...sset=106856,63

                          As for Liberty they claim to have a check valve.... A single check is not considered a proper backflow device. http://www.libertypumps.com/Data/Sal...e/SJ10Aweb.pdf
                          http://www.libertypumps.com/Data/Eng...J10_R11-10.pdf

                          Isn't a backflow check valve the same concept as a backflow device we buy from the supply house? "May require" is just that...not all codes require "additional backflow" for this device. This product would never be allowed without some type of backflow check.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                            Look at the parts break down for the Zoeller..item #2 is the backflow valve assembly.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                              Well here in Illinois those single checks are not approved for the hazard the pump can pose.
                              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                              Ron's Facebook
                              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                                for us in a high hazard environment "which a direct connection between ground water and municipal is considered to be" we'd be required to install a backflow that is both testable, and has an atmospheric vent, leaving an RP.
                                No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X