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  • #31
    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

    also that Ad lists a Pressure Vacuum Breaker as an option, are those banned anywhere else? they aren't legal to install new in our state, and the city I do most of my work in has ceased grandfathering them in as of this year. If I see one in a customers yard I get to sell them a new backflow assembly.
    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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    • #32
      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

      Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
      also that Ad lists a Pressure Vacuum Breaker as an option, are those banned anywhere else? they aren't legal to install new in our state, and the city I do most of my work in has ceased grandfathering them in as of this year. If I see one in a customers yard I get to sell them a new backflow assembly.
      PVB are not allowed in Illinois anymore.
      Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
      A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
      Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
      Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

        The people who write the Plumbing code are not engineers who design these products either. It is of an "opinion" by those who write the Plumbing code that they think additional backflow is required with these devices, and certain area's around the country adopt that code..and some do not.

        There is a little more liability on the manufacture who make these products to comply....than code official's who writes/interprets the code.

        Catastrophic failure can happen with a battery back-up or any device, and we have all seen it at one time or another. A basement filled with water regardless of the back-up system failing can kill someone.

        Back-up pumps were not designed to be a primary pumps and only there for emergency purposes...and I think sometimes Plumbers lose sight of that.

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        • #34
          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

          What is the ratio of, installed water back up sump pumps, to lawn sprinkler systems, sold at H.D. to " The Uneducated " ?
          Maybe. we should ban Lawn sprinkler systems ?
          I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

            Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
            What is the ratio of, installed water back up sump pumps, to lawn sprinkler systems, sold at H.D. to " The Uneducated " ?
            Maybe. we should ban Lawn sprinkler systems ?
            No, not so long as they have the proper backflow preventer installed inline.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

              Thanks for all the opinions and info guys.

              My last comment is that while I like the idea of using water as a power source, I think that on a whole these units seem a little underpowered for their purpose.

              Since they are moving ground water, adding more water to the discharge seems like it would perhaps lead to more standing water outside the home and perhaps contribute to the ground water problem in homes where it is not possible to run the discharge very far from the house (common in my area due to the close proximity of neighbors).


              I still think the DC powered backups are a more effective means of protection.

              I will still contend that the best system IMO is duplex system with 2 AC pumps with an alternator switch and a backup power source like the Sumpro system
              SUMPRO.com - Flood Control Products

              My opinion is that Guardian has the right idea by offering various products like a dual check or RPZ sold directly with the product so that the installer can offer a single product all backed by warranty from the manufacturer.

              My experience is that primary pumps are most likely to fail during heavy storms when they can be put into near continuous use. Storms can do a lot of harmful

              Again, thanks to all!

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                Swade - selecting a back-up pump is only part of the equation.

                Ground water and proper discharging of the line away from the foundation, so you're not recycling water is a whole different animal. I'm sure you guys in the City have a major problem of getting rid of underground water, as there isn't many options for you. A battery back-up is mostly likely a better option for you city folks, versus suburbs, as we have more options available to use to get rid of ground water. I'm sure the city has more work done to their water mains versus the suburbs...especially in an old city like Chicago.

                I also think parts of the country who get constant flooding plays a part in which method is used as well, everybody's situation is different from the other.

                Good luck in which ever system you use.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                  Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
                  PVB are not allowed in Illinois anymore.


                  And I bet that is because half of them wasn't installed 12" above upstream. Seen too many buried in the pit, like that works when the groundwater floods the area.
                  Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                  • #39
                    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                    I see them installed in conjunction with boilers and commercial water heaters all the time. which is both back pressure and downstream shuttoffs which aren't cool with pvb's. I'm wondering if they're being phased out because of all the restrictions on them.

                    Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
                    And I bet that is because half of them wasn't installed 12" above upstream. Seen too many buried in the pit, like that works when the groundwater floods the area.
                    No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                      Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
                      I've been telling my customers that I will not install one because sooner or later they'll ban them in the united states, and that there have been many times where the pump cannot keep up with the incoming water flow.


                      The cost of difference between them is marginal in my opinion but it seems there's many opinions on them.

                      And, I can see them being incorrectly installed without backflow protection by the uneducated. Will it kill people? Probably not, but only us as the licensed professionals will understand that situation and why they won't be installed by a plumber when a handyman or other contractor offers a $240+ cheaper price, making the plumber look expensive.

                      If those units were designed with the backflow protection, and the ratio for water used to water expelled was far better, I could see its true potential.
                      Thanks for taking a few minutes to share your time on this thread steve. I just read about your health troubles. Hope you're on the up and up!
                      -Chris

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                        Steve glad to have you back. The only places I used to see a PVB installed was on lawn sprinkler systems. Never seen them in a pit. But there where some older commercial buildings that have had weighted single checks in a pit for the fire sprinkler systems, which now are required to upgrade to a DCDA or a RPDA assembly which now are required not to be in a pit. So what we end up doing is removing the old single check elbow up above the ground install the new device and elbow back down. Then we backfill, and install a hot box over the works. Fun stuff I tell ya.

                        Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
                        And I bet that is because half of them wasn't installed 12" above upstream. Seen too many buried in the pit, like that works when the groundwater floods the area.
                        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                          I am installing a Sears Water Warden now. Got it (actually 2 of them) for free from my Dad when he noticed Sears was discontinuing them years ago. So far, I have installed a check valve between my submersible's output and the bottom input of the WW. Strangely, my submersible doesn't have a check valve, but I did have one a little further downstream. The WW normally acts as a pass-through unit until its jet is activated by a float-triggered valve. My biggest challenge now is finding a way to mount the valve assembly, since it didn't come with any mounting hardware, flanges, or ears.

                          I'll post pics when done.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                            Do you have any picture of the product?

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