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Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

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  • Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

    I had a customer inquire about one today.

    Anyone ever install one? Thoughts?

    I've seen them advertised in the trade mags but don't know much about them.

    My opinion is that it would need to have a separate dual check (or maybe RPZ though it seems overkill) installed inline since it is a secondary water use (NOT potable water) the same way you would a boiler feed or a lawn sprinkler system. I think that at least a Watts 9D should be put inline.


    What do you guys think?

    Here's an example of a product made by Liberty Pump: Liberty Pumps : Back Up Sump Pumps

  • #2
    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

    I've been telling my customers that I will not install one because sooner or later they'll ban them in the united states, and that there have been many times where the pump cannot keep up with the incoming water flow.


    The cost of difference between them is marginal in my opinion but it seems there's many opinions on them.

    And, I can see them being incorrectly installed without backflow protection by the uneducated. Will it kill people? Probably not, but only us as the licensed professionals will understand that situation and why they won't be installed by a plumber when a handyman or other contractor offers a $240+ cheaper price, making the plumber look expensive.

    If those units were designed with the backflow protection, and the ratio for water used to water expelled was far better, I could see its true potential.
    Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

      I've installed both the Liberty and Zoeller water powered back-up pumps. If I had to give an edge, I'd give it to the Liberty.

      Backflow protection is only required with UPC and a few other states. The Liberty & Zoeller have a backflow device already installed in the unit itself. The extra backflow protection is only to protect the blackflow device in the units...our jurisdiction doesn't require it.

      Personally, I'll take a water back-up over a battery back-up any day of the week...just my tastes though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

        Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
        I've been telling my customers that I will not install one because sooner or later they'll ban them in the united states, and that there have been many times where the pump cannot keep up with the incoming water flow.


        The cost of difference between them is marginal in my opinion but it seems there's many opinions on them.

        And, I can see them being incorrectly installed without backflow protection by the uneducated. Will it kill people? Probably not, but only us as the licensed professionals will understand that situation and why they won't be installed by a plumber when a handyman or other contractor offers a $240+ cheaper price, making the plumber look expensive.

        If those units were designed with the backflow protection, and the ratio for water used to water expelled was far better, I could see its true potential.
        They may already be illegal.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

          my jetter has a jet vac pump that is amazing. even the smaller ridgid jet vac is very impressive. same principal it uses a venturi to suck up the water and lift. of course the higher the pressure and volume, equals more gpm and head lift.

          i'll post a link to the us jetter video of 1 in action.

          Vac Pumps


          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

            A water powered sump pump? That sorta sounds like using a fish hook to get a fish hook out that is stuck in your thumb..... (then you have TWO fish hooks stuck in your thumb.... )
            We don't have preventative maintenance around here, we have CRISIS MANAGEMENT!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

              watch my video link. then you will be blown away what water will do.

              remember the principal behind these is based on a venturi principal. it they went to a hydraulic motor turbine, then it even gets better, but more expensive too.

              water is considered a hydraulic. we all know what a hydraulic pump can do.

              rick.
              phoebe it is

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                watch my video link. then you will be blown away what water will do.

                remember the principal behind these is based on a venturi principal. it they went to a hydraulic motor turbine, then it even gets better, but more expensive too.

                water is considered a hydraulic. we all know what a hydraulic pump can do.

                rick.
                That is pretty impressive, more impressive than what I used to see what the portable pumps would do when I was in the Navy.

                3,000 PSI tho, what kind of pump do you need to to generate the initial pressure to get the other pump going?
                We don't have preventative maintenance around here, we have CRISIS MANAGEMENT!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                  Swade, I just got a mailer in saying RPZ are required to install the water powered back up pumps. I know some cities and townships that will not allow them period. Personally I have came across a couple of these that where the cause of flooding in the basement due to catastrophic failure of the unit.

                  I have sold many the PHCC Pro 2400 battery back up system over the years. With the recent power outages, I had gotten a few calls from those customers thanking me for recommending and installing the unit. One guy I had replaced an aquanot with the PHCC PRO 2400 and he was thrilled he had a nice dry basement since the PHCC PRO preformed as advertised. His Aquanot failed to work last year during the big rains and he didn't know about it not working till he had 2' of water in the basement.
                  Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                  A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                  Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                  Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    They may already be illegal.

                    Mark
                    OK, what's the rest of the story Mark. Sounds like you know of some pending change to the code.

                    And on that subject. If Steve and others feel so strongly about the need for backflow prevention when water-powered pumps are installed, there is nothing that stops you from making your opinion known and submitting a change to the code. You can do it as an individual or it could be a group like your Master Plumbers Association. If you're trying to protect the water system and the public, this would seem to have a bigger and lasting impact...bigger than just refusing to install them on your own.

                    I'm not saying I'm against backflows being installed with these type pumps, don't twist my words around on me. I'm just pointing out that there is a path to affecting a change in the code that will bring the requirement in and help ensure their proper installation or outright ban if that is what you believe.
                    PHCC Wrote the Book: The National Standard Plumbing Code - Contractor Resources - PHCC

                    The National Standard Plumbing Code (NSPC) Committee reviewed more than 90 submitted changes to the NSPC at a public hearing June 9 in Atlantic City, N.J. More than 70 proponents and members of the public were on hand for the day and in the end, 64 items were voted in as changes to the code. Included in the voting was the inclusion of the plumbing chapters from the IAPMO Green Plumbing & Mechanical Code Supplement as an Appendix to the NSPC, which provides contractors sustainable options. The approved code changes and the 2010 NSPC Supplement items will be merged into the code to form the 2012 National Standard Plumbing Code.

                    Click here to download the NSPC Proposed Code Change Book (9MB PDF). The hearing actions will be posted as soon as the transcripts have been reviewed.

                    ---------------
                    Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                    ---------------
                    “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                    ---------
                    "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                    ---------
                    sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                      OK, what's the rest of the story Mark. Sounds like you know of some pending change to the code.

                      And on that subject. If Steve and others feel so strongly about the need for backflow prevention when water-powered pumps are installed, there is nothing that stops you from making your opinion known and submitting a change to the code. You can do it as an individual or it could be a group like your Master Plumbers Association. If you're trying to protect the water system and the public, this would seem to have a bigger and lasting impact...bigger than just refusing to install them on your own.

                      I'm not saying I'm against backflows being installed with these type pumps, don't twist my words around on me. I'm just pointing out that there is a path to affecting a change in the code that will bring the requirement in and help ensure their proper installation or outright ban if that is what you believe.
                      PHCC Wrote the Book: The National Standard Plumbing Code - Contractor Resources - PHCC

                      The National Standard Plumbing Code (NSPC) Committee reviewed more than 90 submitted changes to the NSPC at a public hearing June 9 in Atlantic City, N.J. More than 70 proponents and members of the public were on hand for the day and in the end, 64 items were voted in as changes to the code. Included in the voting was the inclusion of the plumbing chapters from the IAPMO Green Plumbing & Mechanical Code Supplement as an Appendix to the NSPC, which provides contractors sustainable options. The approved code changes and the 2010 NSPC Supplement items will be merged into the code to form the 2012 National Standard Plumbing Code.

                      Click here to download the NSPC Proposed Code Change Book (9MB PDF). The hearing actions will be posted as soon as the transcripts have been reviewed.

                      Some codes and cities want additional back flow prevention on these devices, but why not put additional backflow devices on outside hose bibs as well? To me I believe it's all about Politics...and there are some in this trade/or who right the code who will do everything in their power to ban water "back-up" pumps. IN the end I think they are hypocrites!!

                      Regarding the PHCC, and I hope I don't offend anyone, but they are full of crap organization....at least here in Pennsylvania.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                        We install at least a dozen or so water backups a year. Zoeller, liberty and the guardian. They are very common here in michigan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                          By hose bibbs I am assuming you are talking about wall hydrants which already have backflow built-in.
                          Of course the old style outside hose bibbs that you and I grew up with (and how many times did you
                          drink out of that hose on a hot summers day, huh?) do not and there is nothing that forces their
                          replacement that I am aware of. And nothing that stops a HO from buying a boiler drain and installing
                          it as an outside hose bibb because they don't know better, or care about the consequences.
                          ---------------
                          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                          ---------------
                          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                          ---------
                          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                          ---------
                          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                            Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                            By hose bibbs I am assuming you are talking about wall hydrants which already have backflow built-in.
                            Of course the old style outside hose bibbs that you and I grew up with (and how many times did you
                            drink out of that hose on a hot summers day, huh?) do not and there is nothing that forces their
                            replacement that I am aware of. And nothing that stops a HO from buying a boiler drain and installing
                            it as an outside hose bibb because they don't know better, or care about the consequences.
                            I normally just say outside faucet, but hose bibb was on my brain this morning...cause that's what we grew up with.
                            But that's my point, wall hydrants come with backflow protection, and why are we not double protecting them as well? It's almost like the people who write the code, don;t trust the backflow protection in the water back up pumps, which I think is ridiculous. Pull out spray heads have them as well, and we don't install secondary means for backflow.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Water Powered backup Sump Pumps

                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              I normally just say outside faucet, but hose bibb was on my brain this morning...cause that's what we grew up with.
                              But that's my point, wall hydrants come with backflow protection, and why are we not double protecting them as well? It's almost like the people who write the code, don;t trust the backflow protection in the water back up pumps, which I think is ridiculous. Pull out spray heads have them as well, and we don't install secondary means for backflow.
                              The main reason for the higher standard held to a water powered back up pump is the fact that it is a direct cross connection of waste type water and potable water. Sillcocks are not directly connected to a source of contaminated water, so a vacuum breaker works just fine. I been on jobs where I had to put an RPZ on the supply to a sillcock due to what it was hooked up to. It all depends on the hazard that is connected to the line.
                              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                              Comment

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