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  • Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

    Has anyone heard of ways to modify or alter flushometers to save more water than what they do "stock" out of the box? Some guys at work ran across a guy that says a Zurn or Sloan diaphram can be altered to achieve higher (more) water savings by making minor changes. Does anyone think this is possible to take a 1.6 and bring it down to 1.4? or a 3.5 down to 2.8?

    Any help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

    When it comes to urinals, I think cutting down on the water being used is a huge mistake.

    Urine hardens so..what you save on water consumption will be spent on a Plumber instead.

    But I don't know anything about the diaphragm being altered.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

      I would not bother modifying a flush valve, but there are flush vlaves that give a dual flush. Manual Urinal and Toilet Flushometers | Sloan
      Those would be ok for a water closet installation, but for a urinal, I would want to keep the water volume maximized to prevent sludging of the lines. Those buggers only get flushed maybe once in every 10 uses anyway.

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      • #4
        Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

        You can change the gpf of any Royal or Regal by changing the relief valve stem ( color coded ) and/or the orientation of the refill head ( beveled washer). You can see the complete 411 on this at Sloan Valve Company

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        • #5
          Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

          If the toilet says 1.6 GPF on the porcelain, then that's what the manufacturer intended it to flush at. Making a 1.6 toilet flush with only 1.4 gallons would not be very wise. Same with 3.5 GPF. Using less water than the manufacturer suggests will likely lead to more clogs and more frustration and money spent clearing them.

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          • #6
            lovetheUSA is correct....more details!

            I maintain a 3-story residence each having flushometer type commodes which were installed in the 1950's (they might even be older considering house was built during the 40's). These typical row houses were designed for maximum use of space hence the need for flushometer type bathrooms which saved space by eliminating the tanks typical for tank-type commodes. For me sourcing replacment 3.5 and the ocassional 4.5gpf repair parts were difficult sometimes impossible for the early Sloan GEMS. To make matters worse the GEM design with the piston type cartridge design wore out frequently due to sediment and trash hence a need to rebuild each GEM on a yearly basis was beyond brutal. A few years back I contemplated upgrading all the commodes however could NOT color match new flushometer commodes to the tiled walls and floors hence I just upgraded from Sloan GEM flushometers to Regals and Royals depending whatever I could cost effectively purchase on eBay. Good news is cartridges are identical across Regals and Royals making it easy to cost effectively stock normal wear items on each cartridge. Due to bowl design of the commodes I require both 3.5 and 4.5 gpf cartridges. I shoot for the 3.5gpf (water bills continually going up each year here in NYC) but one particular commode needs a 4.5gpf to properly clean otherwise a multiple flush would be required thereby negating any water savings. Long story short, yes, you can vary the water depending how you alter the build of the Sloan repair cartridge (see pic below). To change Regal or Royal gpf you just use the proper relief valve (item number A-19-AC) and vary the orientation of the top plastic ring directly above the flow ring (item number A-164). Been doing this for years successfully. BTW, consider Sloan Royals over Regals because copper content on flushometer body is better. Rebuilds on Regals/Royals over Sloan Gems are quicker, cheaper but more importantly last 5 times longer due to the diaphram design over the poor piston design on the Gems.....hope this helps
            Attachment
            Attached Files

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            • #7
              Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

              Thanks for the help on this. I really appreciate it.

              Hard to understand why the ring being turned over saves one gallon of water per flush but it does. Would it be safe to think you could configure these diaphrams to get a toilet to flush at 2.9 or 2.6 by finding the right configuration of ring or combination of the turbo rings then?

              HS

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              • #8
                Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                " Some Guys, Know some Guy, That knows More than the Engineers that designed the Valve .

                Do You really believe that ?
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                  HBS,
                  You are welcome to experiment on your own and feed back to this forum. As for me, everything I learned was from researching from the Sloan website along with tearing down a complete failed flushometer cartridge. It helps by bidding and purchasing replacement assemblies via eBay as they are almost always "pennies on the dollar" versus the local supply house which for me is quite expensive. Granted there will be times when the local supply house takes precedence such as catastrophic failureor possibly a obsolete part no longer stocked in a emergency situation. For me, using just the correct amount of water for a "complete flush" is important....anything more is a waste of water and anything less also will use more water since multiple flushes will be required to void the commode of pooh. Sloan, BTW, is a excellent source of info and a call to their tech support is almost always answered with quality info. Good luck on your quest

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                    In the interest of contributing to this forum as a way of giving back, attached is a jpg of the parts breakout for the Sloan Regal/Royal flushometer repair cartridges. Depending on the ring and relief valve used will determine the gpf. 90% of the time when you get a "continuous flush" it is the diaphram which has failed...replacing just the diaphram for $3 (purchased via eBay) will provide a effective rebuild/repair unless the wife wants "bright and shiny" in which case it will cost around $40 for a brand new flushometer (again, eBay purchased). FYI, I purchase whatever flushometers I can get via eBay and just swap out the complete cartridge depending what flow rate I require....hope this helps!

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                    • #11
                      Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                      You guys dont forget to adjust the water shut off valve for proper flush. Too much water and too little water can cause problems. Good day!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                        Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                        " Some Guys, Know some Guy, That knows More than the Engineers that designed the Valve .

                        Do You really believe that ?
                        No but a company is charging $110 a fixture to do this for ESCOs and keeping 70 guys busy so I wanted to question the "hoax" or "reality" of it.

                        "Some guy, we ran across, is making a very nice living in this economy doing this and we are fighting to keep our 18 guys employed."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                          $110 is NOT a bad price considering a Sloan Regal is retailing for around $220 (minus tax if purchased locally). The Royals cost even more since the finish and materials are slightly better (better copper content) then the Regals. Keep in mind he's probably also inclusing installation which is a fantastic bargain. It takes me almost a hour to replace a broken flushometer and this is using everything that comes in the box. Most difficult thing is cutting the tail piece down and dry fitting prior to socking everything down. I then find out the rubber gasket on the spud falls apart on me as I sock everything down which then adds another few dollars to the cost.
                          This is why I lurk on eBay and bid accordingly. You may not win the bid every time but eventually patience wins out. BTW, have any of you guys seen prices of all the eBay American Standard kitchen and bathroom faucets lately?....I use to see bids less than $100 but lately even the junk stuff is 3 figures in price.
                          Last edited by swong; 07-05-2011, 01:10 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                            Originally posted by swong View Post
                            $110 is NOT a bad price considering a Sloan Regal is retailing for around $220 (minus tax if purchased locally). The Royals cost even more since the finish and materials are slightly better (better copper content) then the Regals. Keep in mind he's probably also inclusing installation which is a fantastic bargain. It takes me almost a hour to replace a broken flushometer and this is using everything that comes in the box. Most difficult thing is cutting the tail piece down and dry fitting prior to socking everything down. I then find out the rubber gasket on the spud falls apart on me as I sock everything down which then adds another few dollars to the cost.
                            This is why I lurk on eBay and bid accordingly. You may not win the bid every time but eventually patience wins out. BTW, have any of you guys seen prices of all the eBay American Standard kitchen and bathroom faucets lately?....I use to see bids less than $100 but lately even the junk stuff is 3 figures in price.
                            For sure I have been watching prices go up.....I bought THOUSANDS of $$$$ worth of faucets a few years ago and its paying off in big ways. Somtimes tripling my money or more. I'm with ya!!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Flushometer water savings (commercial buildings not residential)

                              Keep in mind as swong pointed out, that there is a limit for a particular bowl, as to how much you can lower the gpf below its design spec, and still get it to flush.

                              You have WAY too much time on your hands if you are considering experimenting with parts to fine tune a gpf number!!!!!!!

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