Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ProPress

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: ProPress

    [QUOTE=PLUMBER RICK;354642]
    Originally posted by TheMaster View Post

    aren't you the one that doesn't trust a rubber seal for a joint or is that nhmaster?

    a properly soldered joint is good. but unless you can eliminate the water and can get a good joint every time, it can fail.

    do you know how many joints that i've replaced done by others that were not properly soldered from 1/2''-6''. hundreds.

    soldering clean dry fittings up to 1'' i can do with my eyes closed. now factor in water, lousy flux and large bore fittings. i still do 5 and 6'' copper that way as there is no propress. but 4'' and smaller i can do with my eyes closed and water running in 5 seconds without a possibility of a leak now or in the future.

    the water soluble flux of the last 20 or so years that is required by law is lousy in the presence of water or moisture. service work typically has wet pipes. moisture and soldering is 1 more obstacle to fight.

    rick.
    What does water,flux,workman error and victaulic have to do with a properly made propress joint vs a properly made solder or brazed joint?

    Let me answer for you...IT DOESN'T.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: ProPress

      Originally posted by stolen View Post
      I would use it for stuff 2 inch and over. But for residential service? I would actually have to TRY to find a use for it. And correct me if I am wrong Will, but that is the main staple of your business isn't it? Residential service?

      And I really don't care to much for it's other nifty little attachments,as the only one I tried was the cast iron cutter and it was a joke. So the fact that it is like the swiss army knife of the pipe joiners doesn't appeal to me. The pex attachment? That seems ridiculous. Does it have a torch attachment for it to so I can solder with it?
      residential is a good 75%, but remember residential doesn't necessarily mean a single family home. i rarely do apartment service, but i do large scale condo buildings. shutting off water and draining a system to solder is not in their or my best interest. most of these buildings the water mains are 2-6''.

      then i have the real commercial non residential buildings. i also do pipe freezing. soldering and pipe freezing is not a good mix. propress and freezing makes a lot more sense.

      then all the work i do for other plumbers and contractors who don't own the equipment.

      just like the call i got yesterday to do inverted/ upside down core drilling through 12'' of concrete. sure a rotary hammer might work if you don't hit steel and you don't wear yourself out, but a 2'' hole through 12'' of concrete unside down is easier and safer with a bolted in coring machine.
      so everyday is another adventure.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: ProPress

        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
        residential is a good 75%, but remember residential doesn't necessarily mean a single family home. i rarely do apartment service, but i do large scale condo buildings. shutting off water and draining a system to solder is not in their or my best interest. most of these buildings the water mains are 2-6''.

        then i have the real commercial non residential buildings. i also do pipe freezing. soldering and pipe freezing is not a good mix. propress and freezing makes a lot more sense.

        then all the work i do for other plumbers and contractors who don't own the equipment.

        just like the call i got yesterday to do inverted/ upside down core drilling through 12'' of concrete. sure a rotary hammer might work if you don't hit steel and you don't wear yourself out, but a 2'' hole through 12'' of concrete unside down is easier and safer with a bolted in coring machine.
        so everyday is another adventure.

        rick.
        I never said propress wasn't useful or easy or faster. I simply corrected your claim that the fitting is superior. Because its not.....its a glorified sharkbite. It uses an O ring.......my fittings use solder.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: ProPress

          [QUOTE=TheMaster;354645]
          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

          What does water,flux,workman error and victaulic have to do with a properly made propress joint vs a properly made solder or brazed joint?

          Let me answer for you...IT DOESN'T.
          in a perfect world with new pipe that's clean and dry and decent flux, a propress is still a 5 second joint. how long will it take you do sand, flux and solder a 1/2'' joint? how about a 4'' joint?

          now add water and water soluble flux in a building that's occupied and tell me how long it will take. and what your success rate is. if it's not 100% then you failed. how long did it take to cut it out and drain it down again?

          chances are you never see the type of work i do and have to perform under. when you start to work in multi-millon dollar units, you'll see soldering is not always an option.

          tell me how often you need to shut off a high rise and sit there to drain it down.

          tell me if i can do it without shutting off the water and be done in minutes compared to your way, who's going to get the job.

          do you forget that i don't need to advertise my services and even the supply houses recommend me to other plumbers. the reason is i have the tools to get it done. not sit there to watch it drip and drain all day long.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: ProPress

            Propress IS better. Better made fittings, looks better, cleaner, faster, etc. etc. I will never go back to soldering if I don't have to do so.

            Service is mostly what I do. Along with many re-pipes and remodel. Not a lot of commercial.

            Every water heater I install, ProPress. 3/4" female x PP directly on the water heater, PP ball valves, PP couplings or other fitting if needed. Cut my water heater install time in half.

            Replacing angle stops. I make up my angle stops before hand and have them stocked on the truck with PP already attached to them. 1/2" PP male adapters. All I do is cut the copper pipe and PP the new ones on, takes about 30 seconds. I won Ridgid tools in tool tip for this one. I guess they agree with me.

            Cutting out old gate valves, with PP ball valves and a PP coupling it takes about a minute. I also use the Milwaukee tubing cutter, fast. My customers look at me like what the fark did you just do? LOL

            Anyone complaining about ProPress has never used it. When you do you will never go back.

            I plan on buying the 330C corded tool next. I'm doing more boiler work and need the larger size now. No way am I soldering those fittings.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: ProPress

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post

              in a perfect world with new pipe that's clean and dry and decent flux, a propress is still a 5 second joint. how long will it take you do sand, flux and solder a 1/2'' joint? how about a 4'' joint?

              now add water and water soluble flux in a building that's occupied and tell me how long it will take. and what your success rate is. if it's not 100% then you failed. how long did it take to cut it out and drain it down again?

              chances are you never see the type of work i do and have to perform under. when you start to work in multi-millon dollar units, you'll see soldering is not always an option.

              tell me how often you need to shut off a high rise and sit there to drain it down.

              tell me if i can do it without shutting off the water and be done in minutes compared to your way, who's going to get the job.

              do you forget that i don't need to advertise my services and even the supply houses recommend me to other plumbers. the reason is i have the tools to get it done. not sit there to watch it drip and drain all day long.

              rick.
              Rick I'm starting to have my doubts about you. I read your ramble and none of it makes any sense in context to what you stated and i corrected. The propress joint is not superior to a solder fittings. WHY???? I have told you time and time again.....because a propress fitting has an o ring seal that is NOT superior to soldering or brazing.

              It has nothing to do with whats faster or what suits YOUR needs better. Its about what joint is best. Sorry but 20 press tools,20 jetters.500 pipe wrenchs and a partridge in a pear tree doesn't make you right..

              For the record your stating that a propress joint is "superior" than a solder or brazed joint. I say the opposite is true. Just so you dont lose focus and so people who read the thread dont get confused.

              You remind me of debating with a child.....for example...... one kid says to another kid "My bike is better than yours" you would respond "No its not mine is better and I have 2 dogs and a cat"

              I had kids like that in my neighborhood when I was growing up. I didn;t get it then and I still dont get why people do that. I'ma look into whats goes on in a persons head when they do that.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: ProPress

                Ranger, not only am I not complaining about propress, no one else in the thread is. We are debating which is better.
                Everyone chiming in has obviously used one, so that statement is just completely wrong.

                now, you said
                "Every water heater I install, ProPress. 3/4" female x PP directly on the water heater, PP ball valves, PP couplings or other fitting if needed. Cut my water heater install time in half."

                So, you're telling me that HALF your water heater install time was soldering joints? No wonder why you hate solder so much. I would too if it took me 1-2 hours to solder 8 joints! (2 females 2 90s and a ballvalve)

                Propress is FASTER, not better. Do not even try to argue the intergrity of the connection made, because a rubber seal can and WILL rot out, whereas a solder joint will last FOREVER. I guess maybe not forever, it would eventually biodegrade at some point I guess.

                Propress is EASIER, faster and allows you to join wet copper pipe together. That is what it IS.

                This is what it's not.
                BETTER, cheaper.

                I am in total agreement that it is a better choice when you're dealing with big pipe, stopping water and looking to get the job done fast. But that is where it's benefits end, speed. While speed in itself is a huge benefit, any HACK can press a joint together. But not just any hack can afford the machine, that takes a licensed hack!

                JUST KIDDING, but seriously it's situationally better than soldering at BEST. I have probably ran into 2 calls in the past year that I could not stop the water and a press tool would have been great. Two, two whole times. And I still managed, by some weird alignment of the stars and the moon to make it happen. I know, it sounds really really far fetched, but I did wave my magic wand at the pipe and the water stopped. And I made the solder.

                There are several methods of stopping a drip in the pipe. Hell solder on a MIP adapter, then thread on a ball valve. but how..... Jet Swet wants to say hi. Or just solder on the ball vale! I have more ways to stop a leak than I have excuses to buy that tool. And if stopping water is your only excuse, then fine.

                Also you can't press every thing together, sometimes space is an issue and it's simply not possible. Not only that but pressing fittings in the wrong order if you are building something up can royally screw you. Since sometimes you have to press the top 90 before the bottom or the tool won't fit to pres the coupling in between. Just a rough example, but you get the point. I can solder 2 runs of copper touching each other, wheras you need space between the pipes and other things to be able to press. Petty argument? Absolutely not when it comes to service as that is a HUGE concern when making repairs.

                DISCLAIMER, this quote is NOT about super huge pipe and multi story hotels***

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: ProPress

                  I use the Pro-Press at Thanksgiving to crack walnuts
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: ProPress

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    I use the Pro-Press at Thanksgiving to crack walnuts
                    IT HAS AN ATTACHMENT FOR THAT TOO?!

                    This is starting to remind me about an infomercial...


                    Not only can it join pipes, but it can cut, solder, braze, hammer, iron your clothes, do your laundry and it's only 2599.00 plus S&H. but if you call now, we will throw in the bonus attachment that lets you attach it to other propress machines for a propresipede!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: ProPress

                      Originally posted by Will Rogers Plumbing View Post
                      What's the advantages of the 330c vs the CT 400? I've used the CT-400 a lot on 3" and 4" installs, but it's been probably 8 years since I used one. I remember it was built like a tank and seemed like it would last forever, but it was heavy as sin. I've also used the 330c or maybe 100b can't remember and it was alot lighter, but not sure if it is built as well. Is the CT-400 even made anymore? I do want to have the option of the swivel head. I would prefer to have a cord over a battery. Corded tools seems to be more reliable.

                      I have the 330c. It seems about half the weight of the CT400. But the 400 does look like it would last for ever. I have tried the 320e cordless and the 330c seems way more powerful because of the cord. I just got the swivel heads for the 330c but have not tested them out yet. I dont think the 400 is made anymore.
                      You can lose with me, but you can't win without me!.... PPI

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: ProPress

                        I understand what Rick is saying...his argument is the thickness of the copper is more superior and I agree.

                        But I agree with TM as well about the O ring being the weakest link.

                        I want to get a Propress eventually, but cost of fittings is a concern for me. Plus I think Propress is a "cleaner" look, but then again you will have this clean looking install tying into older copper.

                        With solder @ $25.00 a roll now and regular copper fittings pricey as well, it's almost a wash price wise I guess. I'm just starting to hate carrying my "B" tank around anymore.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: ProPress

                          Each person knows their work.

                          Think about the last year. How many times would you need the ProPress?

                          Think about where your work is heading. What's around you that could use it? Will you need it enough to justify it? Are fittings readily available? All are very important.

                          Doing commercial with larger pipe like Rick sees, you should probably get one. Then you'll automatically use it for other things smaller. But if you don't run into larger pipe or situation where draindown & time to bring the system back up are an issue, then it is a poor investment.

                          Just an example. In residential and you go for a repair, and the copper is worn thin, the ProPress is useless. But you can solder and get things running again. A repipe can be considered or the repair can often last years. Ya'll know this though.

                          Rick, to constantly push that it is faster is a little insulting. There is not one person with any knowledge of any of this that can't figure out that it's faster in about a minute of looking at it. Doesn't seem like that should even be discussed. Kind of like saying "Oh yeah, but it's orange!". Everyone already knows it's orange.

                          Which brings up something else. If you're flat rate or doing bids, it can increase your bottom line with that speed. However, if you're time and materials, it will never, ever, save you 1 dime. Not even finishing jobs quicker and getting to the next job will gain you anything. Some believe this, but it is not true. You work x amount of time and bill for it, always.

                          The running water connection is a great benefit. How many times have you been a position for this? And a JetSwet wouldn't work at all? Most I know don't have the problem. If they did they would buy...... A Press Tool!

                          What's a superior joint? Probably old USA galvanized threaded. Most hate it when they run into it. But we forget that it has been in 50, 60, 70 years. Seems like soldered/brazed would come next, and then other systems in varying orders with benefits and drawbacks. Some would be surprised that the tables for ProPress show HIGHER threshold pressures than solder joints shown by the Copper.org industry. Compare if you like.

                          That doesn't mean that much to me. All of these systems (Sweat, ProPress, PEX, CPVC) need to be long-term tested with running water through a few joints at say.....60 psi with varying temperature, on-off solenoids, and some chlorine/chloramines & whatever other common trace chemicals are typically involved. Only then can one get an actual idea of what is "the superior joint" for long-term because in a potable water system, the water is a chemical that is flowing under pressure working against material containing it. A piece of PEX sitting in a lab sitting idle under pressure or a ProPress pressure table don't hold as much validity in my opinion.

                          Viega are smart people and businessman. They are veeerrry careful not to call the one part of their connection an "O-Ring" because there is not a person that has worked in this industry that has not seen an O-Ring fail. So they call it an EPDM "Sealing Element". Like when something is made of plastic. They dare not call it plastic anymore, it's an "Engineered Polymer". Marketing, and more importantly, patenting to get Architectural approval that another company can't use. Therefore, like materials cannot be substituted. See "Smart Connect". Also known as B.S.

                          The thickness of the fitting is great! Doesn't mean it is superior because you have the O-ring for one, and the crimp deforming the pipe possibly causing turbulent flow and wear in the adjoining pipe. I don't know this to be true, just theory from looking at it. But it is also just theory that it is superior in any way because the fitting is thicker.

                          Blah, blah, blah.... If you can see it helps you in your work, get one. Get TWO! For myself and those around me, the money can be spent better elsewhere.

                          Good luck.


                          J.C.
                          Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 08-12-2011, 05:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: ProPress

                            I don't care what anyone says. ProPress is way faster, way better, looks better, and will last forever. I believe in the Viega Company, In fact I love the company! They are the best thing to happen to our trade in decades. I use their pex and I use their ProPress and it might not please a lot of folks right now but this company has cornered the market. It's just a matter of time before soldering is a thing of the past and that's a fact. Get over it and get with the times or get left behind!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: ProPress

                              Originally posted by ironranger View Post
                              I don't care what anyone says. ProPress is way faster, way better, looks better, and will last forever. I believe in the Viega Company, In fact I love the company! They are the best thing to happen to our trade in decades. I use their pex and I use their ProPress and it might not please a lot of folks right now but this company has cornered the market. It's just a matter of time before soldering is a thing of the past and that's a fact. Get over it and get with the times or get left behind!
                              Viega's fine. I use Viega UltraPEX.

                              But a PressTool isn't for everybody.

                              Many don't need a Tri-Stand either.

                              And with proven long-term success, I believe you're right, soldering will one day be gone for the most part.


                              J.C.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: ProPress

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                Viega's fine. I use Viega UltraPEX.

                                But a PressTool isn't for everybody.

                                Many don't need a Tri-Stand either.

                                And with proven long-term success, I believe you're right, soldering will one day be gone for the most part.


                                J.C.

                                I don't use the jaws for the pex pureflow, I still use the hand tools. I find it's way faster with the hand tools for pex. Everything I do these days is pex or ProPress. I have a stick of 1/2, 3/4 and 1" copper in the van for transitions but that's it. I have a 300' roll of 1/2 and 3/4 pex on hand at all times and all the ProPress fitting I need. The cost factor is not an issue, it gets passed on to the customer, really not a big deal at all.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X