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  • #16
    Re: leaking newly installed toilet

    Originally posted by Big Jim View Post
    Maybe I haven't installed enough toilets in 38 yrs. of plumbing, but I've never

    double nutted closet bolts and never had a reason to. Yes, I've pulled toilets

    where the bolts were loose, but that was because the flange had cracked,

    wasn't secured to the floor, or otherwise improperly set. I don't reuse old

    bolts either, but that has nothing to do with anything. I have enough confidence

    in my ability to properly set a flange and toilet that double nutting the bolts is

    not necessary. That's just me, not disparaging your way of doing it.

    I like Hercules johnny bolts, they don't spin.

    That's cool. But I don't mind spending the extra 10 cents to make sure my bolts stay in place and to know that when the next plumber comes along to pull that toilet they will be thanking me for it. I may be an odd ball but for me it seems that every other toilet I go to reset, the bolts end up being loose when I loosen the nuts and I curse the plumber that installed it, maybe I'm just unlucky? I'm asking all plumbers out there, PLEASE DOUBLE NUT YOUR TOILET BOLTS FOR THE SAKE OF ALL PLUMBERS EVERYWHERE!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: leaking newly installed toilet

      guys, the correct method is to have the flange sitting on top of the finished floor. unfortunately that doesn't always happen after the floor has been re-tiled, or hardwood has been installed. but there is absolutely nothing wrong with an extra thick wax ring or a double wax ring. a 4'' horned ring installed through another 4'' ring will always properly align and seal.
      in the tens of thousands of toilets 1've personally installed. if i had to rework every flange ever ruffed in over the years by others, i'd still be pounding concrete and lead.
      what i can tell you is i've removed more of those plastic spacers i care to remember. probably due to the fact they didn't use the proper adhesive and allow it to dry.

      a wax seal is only subject to failure when it's not properly lined up or properly compressed between the flange and bottom of the toilet.

      now as far as nutting a closet bolt onto the flange. in the old days the bolts came with a "tinner's nut" basically a spring steel clip. it held the bolt in place, but didn't secure it to the flange like a nut and washer. think of the old toilet tank installations that don't use a second set of nuts and washers. we all feel much more secure with a second set of nuts on a tank to bowl connection. pretty much the same holds true with a closet bolt to flange nut and washer. the double nut also makes it a breeze to remove down the road.

      rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: leaking newly installed toilet

        I believe the question that was asked was the proper way to do it. Not what can I do and hopefully get away with it and the proper way is the flange on top of finished floor. This person has had it leak twice and now its time to do it right not again! As far as the double nut or not to double nut that is really a matter of prefference . I see where it could be handy but havent ever personally ever seen it done here and havent ever had any problems getting the toilets off. Besides dont believe either way is going to create a better seal.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: leaking newly installed toilet

          Feels more solid to me to double nut them. And never a problem later. I find it hard to believe some of you have never seen a problem because of the previous plumber not doing this..

          And as far as setting the flange on top of the floor, or flush, it's maybe 1/4 inch difference. I buy the biggest wax rings I can buy all the time. Think they are a inch thick. If the toilet doesn't feel like it squished down on the first wax, the second always gets it. Nothing wrong with it, and never seen any troubles that way. You can harp and use phrases like "thats whats up" but it doesn't make you any more, or less, wrong.


          And as for your post Killingtime, the proper way to do it, would be to call a PLUMBER, no?

          Again if it is the proper way to set them on TOP of the floor as opposed to flush, show me where it says that.
          Oklahoma uses the IPC and I believe we just adopted the 09 codes. their website says the 2000 codes, but that is def not true.

          405.4 Floor and wall drainage connections. Connections between the drain and floor outlet plumbing fixtures shall be made with a floor flange. The flange shall be attached to the drain and anchored to the structure. Connections between the drain and wall-hung water closets shall be made with an approved extension nipple or horn adaptor. The water closet shall be bolted to the hanger with corrosion-resistant bolts or screws. Joints shall be sealed with an approved elastomeric gasket, flange-to-fixture connection complying with ASME A112.4.3 or an approved setting compound.

          Looks like if the finished floor happens to be the plywood (crawlspace home) or the concrete (slab home) then you guys are right. Floor coverings are not part of the STRUCTURE. So is THAT WHATS UP?

          Or do you really want to make a mountain out of a molehill?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: leaking newly installed toilet

            Originally posted by stolen View Post
            Feels more solid to me to double nut them. And never a problem later. I find it hard to believe some of you have never seen a problem because of the previous plumber not doing this..

            And as far as setting the flange on top of the floor, or flush, it's maybe 1/4 inch difference. I buy the biggest wax rings I can buy all the time. Think they are a inch thick. If the toilet doesn't feel like it squished down on the first wax, the second always gets it. Nothing wrong with it, and never seen any troubles that way. You can harp and use phrases like "thats whats up" but it doesn't make you any more, or less, wrong.


            And as for your post Killingtime, the proper way to do it, would be to call a PLUMBER, no?

            Again if it is the proper way to set them on TOP of the floor as opposed to flush, show me where it says that.
            Oklahoma uses the IPC and I believe we just adopted the 09 codes. their website says the 2000 codes, but that is def not true.

            405.4 Floor and wall drainage connections. Connections between the drain and floor outlet plumbing fixtures shall be made with a floor flange. The flange shall be attached to the drain and anchored to the structure. Connections between the drain and wall-hung water closets shall be made with an approved extension nipple or horn adaptor. The water closet shall be bolted to the hanger with corrosion-resistant bolts or screws. Joints shall be sealed with an approved elastomeric gasket, flange-to-fixture connection complying with ASME A112.4.3 or an approved setting compound.

            Looks like if the finished floor happens to be the plywood (crawlspace home) or the concrete (slab home) then you guys are right. Floor coverings are not part of the STRUCTURE. So is THAT WHATS UP?

            Or do you really want to make a mountain out of a molehill?
            I certainly hope you are not serious. What do you do with an 1.25" tile floor or an 1.5" natural stone floor?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: leaking newly installed toilet

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              I certainly hope you are not serious. What do you do with an 1.25" tile floor or an 1.5" natural stone floor?

              Mark
              Just show me where it says you have to put the flange on TOP of the floor covering and I will concede. I wouldn't consider floor coverings as part of the structure. Maybe it's because I am hung up on the meaning of structure.

              In engineering and architecture, a structure is a body or assemblage of bodies in space to form a system capable of supporting loads.

              Supporting loads, and the tile/carpet or other does nothing for that. Is that arguing semantics? not anymore than you guys swearing the flange has to sit on top of the floor covering to work. You call it wrong, say I am a bad internets plumber, but show me evidence that says flush won't work just fine. Show me where it says you HAVE to put it on top. Just show me. I have googled it for a hour and can't find anything to support this claim. Give me a solid reason why to set it on top. you say stacking wax is bad. when in reality stacking 2 is not. And even if that, that is all you would need.

              Just stop acting like your method is the ONLY way to do things, and show me where it says you HAVE to put the flange on top of the floor covering.

              I'm not saying oh man the homeowner wanted 6 feet thick tile laid, so now you have to put in a wax tunnel to make it work. And the portion of code I quoted, Mark, was to point out that my codebook does NOT say you have to set your flange on anything, but the concrete/plywood or whatever the subfloor is.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                Originally posted by stolen View Post
                Just show me where it says you have to put the flange on TOP of the floor covering and I will concede. I wouldn't consider floor coverings as part of the structure. Maybe it's because I am hung up on the meaning of structure.

                In engineering and architecture, a structure is a body or assemblage of bodies in space to form a system capable of supporting loads.

                Supporting loads, and the tile/carpet or other does nothing for that. Is that arguing semantics? not anymore than you guys swearing the flange has to sit on top of the floor covering to work. You call it wrong, say I am a bad internets plumber, but show me evidence that says flush won't work just fine. Show me where it says you HAVE to put it on top. Just show me. I have googled it for a hour and can't find anything to support this claim. Give me a solid reason why to set it on top. you say stacking wax is bad. when in reality stacking 2 is not. And even if that, that is all you would need.

                Just stop acting like your method is the ONLY way to do things, and show me where it says you HAVE to put the flange on top of the floor covering.

                I'm not saying oh man the homeowner wanted 6 feet thick tile laid, so now you have to put in a wax tunnel to make it work. And the portion of code I quoted, Mark, was to point out that my codebook does NOT say you have to set your flange on anything, but the concrete/plywood or whatever the subfloor is.
                I never said my way was the only way but stacking an 1.5" of bowl waxes is not my idea of a properly set water closet. You are using a very limited definition of the word "structure". Let's say the FD response to a "structure" fire. By your definition they will only be fighting the structural members which are on fire and let the rest burn.

                If you look at your building code you will see the words "building" and "structure" are interchangeable.

                Take a look at your building code.

                STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed.

                Now look at your plumbing code.

                STRUCTURE. That which is built or constructed or a portion thereof.

                Mark
                Last edited by ToUtahNow; 09-01-2011, 10:42 PM.
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                  it's very common to see a flange anchored to a cement slab or lightweight concrete. but if the plumber knew that the finished flooring was going to be more than polished concrete or sheet vinyl, then they should have ruffed the flange in at the higher level to accommodated the thicker wood or tile floor.

                  now comes the issue. for me dealing with large scale projects from 10- 1000 toilets on a job site, the plumbing inspector wants to see the flange installed on the ruff inspection. not just stubbed up and installed on the finish. so of course there will always be room for error when the finished flooring is picked and laid.

                  if it was up to me, i would always stub up the closet riser and wrap it with a spacer to allow the flange to be installed in the finish. problem is dealing with the inspector and trying to convince them that setting the flange in the finish is better. there is no way an inspector is coming back to inspect floor flanges after the floors are installed.

                  so it's not uncommon to double up a wax and be perfectly fine. but if i had the opportunity to set the flange on the finish and bolt it down through the finished floor, i'll do it that way.

                  a harveys #10 or #50 is the thickest wax ring i've found. buy them by the case.

                  so take it for what it's worth, there are 2 ways to do it. both will work, but the preferred method is to use 1 wax and the finished flanged sitting on top of the finished floor.

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                    Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                    it's very common to see a flange anchored to a cement slab or lightweight concrete. but if the plumber knew that the finished flooring was going to be more than polished concrete or sheet vinyl, then they should have ruffed the flange in at the higher level to accommodated the thicker wood or tile floor.

                    now comes the issue. for me dealing with large scale projects from 10- 1000 toilets on a job site, the plumbing inspector wants to see the flange installed on the ruff inspection. not just stubbed up and installed on the finish. so of course there will always be room for error when the finished flooring is picked and laid.

                    if it was up to me, i would always stub up the closet riser and wrap it with a spacer to allow the flange to be installed in the finish. problem is dealing with the inspector and trying to convince them that setting the flange in the finish is better. there is no way an inspector is coming back to inspect floor flanges after the floors are installed.

                    so it's not uncommon to double up a wax and be perfectly fine. but if i had the opportunity to set the flange on the finish and bolt it down through the finished floor, i'll do it that way.

                    a harveys #10 or #50 is the thickest wax ring i've found. buy them by the case.

                    so take it for what it's worth, there are 2 ways to do it. both will work, but the preferred method is to use 1 wax and the finished flanged sitting on top of the finished floor.

                    rick.
                    This is not so much what will work as it is this is a new installation with a new floor during a remodel. The thing has leaked twice already and now is the time to do it right.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                      Well I Believe if the manufactures wanted you to do it that way then why dont they make a 2 inch wax ring then and be done with it.

                      Stolen I dont know about Oklahoma but arkansas has the right to work law and home owners can fix anything they want in there own home and might as well be informed on the PROPER way to do things.


                      Also as far as where it says it at check out International code 420.4 and I quote. Flange shall be installed to receive the fixture horn. Yeah thats whats up!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                        If you put wing nuts on a tank....I will find you.


                        J.C.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                          Originally posted by TheMaster
                          Heres the real deal. The joint between the pipe and the flange really has to be no better than the wax joint between the flange and the bowl. I have heard that in some places they do air tests after the bowls are set with air and a manometer. I think thats alittle overboard but i dont object aslong as I'm not required to do it.

                          I think more floors are ruined by flanges that are too low rather than the joint between the flange and the pipe leaking. I'd bet the bank on it.
                          Made me chuckle a little.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: leaking newly installed toilet

                            Originally posted by stolen View Post
                            Just show me where it says you have to put the flange on TOP of the floor covering and I will concede. I wouldn't consider floor coverings as part of the structure. Maybe it's because I am hung up on the meaning of structure.

                            In engineering and architecture, a structure is a body or assemblage of bodies in space to form a system capable of supporting loads.

                            Supporting loads, and the tile/carpet or other does nothing for that. Is that arguing semantics? not anymore than you guys swearing the flange has to sit on top of the floor covering to work. You call it wrong, say I am a bad internets plumber, but show me evidence that says flush won't work just fine. Show me where it says you HAVE to put it on top. Just show me. I have googled it for a hour and can't find anything to support this claim. Give me a solid reason why to set it on top. you say stacking wax is bad. when in reality stacking 2 is not. And even if that, that is all you would need.

                            Just stop acting like your method is the ONLY way to do things, and show me where it says you HAVE to put the flange on top of the floor covering.

                            I'm not saying oh man the homeowner wanted 6 feet thick tile laid, so now you have to put in a wax tunnel to make it work. And the portion of code I quoted, Mark, was to point out that my codebook does NOT say you have to set your flange on anything, but the concrete/plywood or whatever the subfloor is.
                            I'm not sure if there IS a written part of the IPC that states that "closet flanges must be installed in such a manner that the bottom edge rests on the finished flooring....blah, blah..." The Interpretation Manual might explain that this is the intention of the code however.

                            Seen double seals doing fine 20+ years. Only reason someone finds it is if they remodel or change the toilet. Other times, the flange is GONE! But not leaking. And seen both of these situations causing leaks. I think sometimes it can be related to the particular toilet design at the outlet. Some have a lower horn than others. A "high horn" and double seal might be a combination for problems.

                            No installation method will ever be perfect. You try to put the fixture in with the least percentage that problems will arise prematurely. In my experience, installing the flange on top of the finished floor has had the lowest percentage of problems.


                            J.C.

                            Comment

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