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  • #46
    Re: Flue for water heater question

    Originally posted by Hosh View Post
    To be clear - I did mention that this was a swap of the water heater with nothing else touched. That is a very simple job and my question was to gauge a few things: if it was correct, if it needed to be changed, and if it was outside of my abilities. I'll tell you right now it is nowhere near outside of my abilities, although the knowledge is. That would never stop me from hiring a pro though. I've had a moment to find the paperwork on the previous installation and it was indeed installed by a licensed plumber. So swearing by plumbers saving families also does not always work out.

    If I could take a step back and offer my advice on this thread, I would say thanks to everyone and that I learned a lot and very quickly. That is wonderful.. it really is. I learned the least from Cleanmen2's rant, which offered nothing except fear mongering and berating when I had already come to the conclusion that it is wrong and I better get it fixed fast. But aside from it being mildly annoying.. I find nothing wrong with that. I figure he wrote it when he was drunk and maybe cut through many of the responses in between. I believe that is what bluecan was trying to point out.. and then things went a bit haywire. But on that note.. let's all calm down haha

    Edit: I foolishly made a mistake in this post and have corrected the name of the person I mentioned.

    Cheers!
    Hosh, settle down for a minute. I was not drunk as you suggest and there lies the first lesson, not un derstandiung what is put in front of you. next Bluecan the Engineer is not as smart as he makes out to be. What is not being understood by yourself or the Engineer is that it is OK to kill yourself but what about others. So you think I am a scaremongerer, so be it. We are charged with a duty of care and some of us are pationate about it. There are things wrong with your installation which should be checked out by someone who knows what they are doing. Simple comment. Maybe BLUECAN the expert can assist for nothing. I dont want a slanging match, I simply suggest an EXPERT. Now I see you have already chanted about the original installation being done by a plumber. Did it have photos attached to show you what he did and what was there back then.
    Over here we are guarded with information for THREE(3) reasons. Your safety, the Coroner and the Legal Fraternity. A mistake is human unless you know better. Your safety is worth how much. Bluecan still hasnt given a price for his children or wife yet. You put money ahead of safety and scaremonger about professionals, god bless you son and I hope nothing happens. If you take the time to read the information we have on CO poisoning, the information on these pathetic excuses for alarms and other issues surrounding my so called rant and scaremongering maybe you could see sense. I dont know about your regulators over there but we used to have worlds best here. Our authority tested every appliance befoer they were released into the market. If we followed the installation instructions, and mind you sometimes we had to modify them for safety reasons, we were generally ok. Also you cant take for granted that what was done then is still good now. Another mostake you have made. I see issues with your photo which concern me. Henceforth I suggest you seek out a Professional, to go forward and make an on the spot assessment. I would suggest you will not like it because if what I see is as is then you will have to spend money to fix it properly. Now a final question for you, are you going to live in this house forever or are you going to sell it in years to come and look into the eyes of the potential buyer and say everything is ok because I sent a photo to a forum and got help with something that I thought was straight forward.
    A true PROFESSIONAL will carry out many checks, things that we are taught to look for, and advise you accordingly. If you base a true professional on how much money you have to spend I pity you.
    For Bluecan, I dont agree with rubbishing people but I do agree with respect. We deal with your fraternity all the time and sorry, hands on beats reference books everytime. I comend you for admitting that you dont know everything, I DONT. I do however carry out my Profession with ethics and care. I read Hosh to be a tryer, thats ok but I reiterate I see problems with his installation which noone has piped in to mention. You can belittle me if you like, I dont care. If you want to take my job, your welcome to it. If hosh kills someone through his lack of knowlege, hios conscience not mine. I think a PROFESSIONAL should look at this and that my friend is MY HUMBLE OPINION.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Flue for water heater question

      Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
      No shut off on the W.H. cold feed , is that a East coast Practice ? Also can someone explain How the different size Flues entering the chimney affect each other?
      Smaller Below the larger ,Ect. Thanks
      Just to annoy you. Well, there is a reason but it really isn't a reason. Since the chimney is going to need to be big enough for the higher btu boiler it is going to be that much harder for the water heater to create a draft. Now, the boilers in NC are off at least 4 months out of the year?! If you look in a code book you will be able to find the maximum size chimney for a particular cross section of vent pipe being used. I have not come across many chimneys that were going to be too big. I know this may not be of real help but it is the reason.

      If you were to ask an inspector he would most likely give an absurd scenario like the boiler being in the attic and the water heater being in the basement but, is the chimney too big for the water heater to draft? Probably not.

      I will give you another annoying code for single story codes on venting. Piping a exhaust out one wall in the basement and another for fresh air through the opposite wall of the house at the same level. I was pretty green and did not know about the reasoning? The reason is pressure differentials causing problems. Makes sense if it were a large multi story building....so I ask. My response from the inspector is pressure differential. I asked him how there would be a problem on this site? His response was great, what if there was a tornado?....Me being me I said, I would be worried about the tornado and probably not be using the water heater.

      It is what it is I suppose. There is a good reason for each and it is easier to make one code to solve potential problems across the board rather than not. I am sure the HVAC techs would do a better job of answering this though. May want to post a new thread in their section if you wanted another's answer that has not already responded on this thread. I believe at least one response was given by a HVAC tech.
      AllurePlumbing.com
      • leak detection
      • drain cleaning
      • utility locating
      • conductor fault locating
      • and other specialties.

      Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Flue for water heater question

        Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
        Hosh, settle down for a minute. I was not drunk as you suggest and there lies the first lesson, not un derstandiung what is put in front of you. next Bluecan the Engineer is not as smart as he makes out to be. What is not being understood by yourself or the Engineer is that it is OK to kill yourself but what about others. So you think I am a scaremongerer, so be it. We are charged with a duty of care and some of us are pationate about it. There are things wrong with your installation which should be checked out by someone who knows what they are doing. Simple comment. Maybe BLUECAN the expert can assist for nothing. I dont want a slanging match, I simply suggest an EXPERT. Now I see you have already chanted about the original installation being done by a plumber. Did it have photos attached to show you what he did and what was there back then.
        Over here we are guarded with information for THREE(3) reasons. Your safety, the Coroner and the Legal Fraternity. A mistake is human unless you know better. Your safety is worth how much. Bluecan still hasnt given a price for his children or wife yet. You put money ahead of safety and scaremonger about professionals, god bless you son and I hope nothing happens. If you take the time to read the information we have on CO poisoning, the information on these pathetic excuses for alarms and other issues surrounding my so called rant and scaremongering maybe you could see sense. I dont know about your regulators over there but we used to have worlds best here. Our authority tested every appliance befoer they were released into the market. If we followed the installation instructions, and mind you sometimes we had to modify them for safety reasons, we were generally ok. Also you cant take for granted that what was done then is still good now. Another mostake you have made. I see issues with your photo which concern me. Henceforth I suggest you seek out a Professional, to go forward and make an on the spot assessment. I would suggest you will not like it because if what I see is as is then you will have to spend money to fix it properly. Now a final question for you, are you going to live in this house forever or are you going to sell it in years to come and look into the eyes of the potential buyer and say everything is ok because I sent a photo to a forum and got help with something that I thought was straight forward.
        A true PROFESSIONAL will carry out many checks, things that we are taught to look for, and advise you accordingly. If you base a true professional on how much money you have to spend I pity you.
        For Bluecan, I dont agree with rubbishing people but I do agree with respect. We deal with your fraternity all the time and sorry, hands on beats reference books everytime. I comend you for admitting that you dont know everything, I DONT. I do however carry out my Profession with ethics and care. I read Hosh to be a tryer, thats ok but I reiterate I see problems with his installation which noone has piped in to mention. You can belittle me if you like, I dont care. If you want to take my job, your welcome to it. If hosh kills someone through his lack of knowlege, hios conscience not mine. I think a PROFESSIONAL should look at this and that my friend is MY HUMBLE OPINION.
        You are either drunk or on drugs. Nothing you posted in your previous rants has been useful to anyone. I'm not as smart as I make out be? Sorry to say this but if you were smart you would probably doing something other than sticking gas pipes together for a living. Must have taken quite a bit of the brain cells in your pea sized brain to come up with this post.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Flue for water heater question

          Let's keep it civil guys.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Flue for water heater question

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            Let's keep it civil guys.

            Mark
            So, how many times do you say that outside of a drum/sectional thread?
            AllurePlumbing.com
            • leak detection
            • drain cleaning
            • utility locating
            • conductor fault locating
            • and other specialties.

            Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Flue for water heater question

              Sorry to detract again from the OPs topic at hand. You do have to wonder what is going though some people's head when they post stuff. I maintain (as in my other thread) that lately this site is not what it used to be based on my recent experiences.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Flue for water heater question

                AllurePlumbing.com
                • leak detection
                • drain cleaning
                • utility locating
                • conductor fault locating
                • and other specialties.

                Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Flue for water heater question

                  Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                  Sorry to detract again from the OPs topic at hand. You do have to wonder what is going though some people's head when they post stuff. I maintain (as in my other thread) that lately this site is not what it used to be based on my recent experiences.
                  Now I see the light. It's the forum that is the problem. Gettinit, Cleanmen2, myself, etc.: We're all wrong. Never mind those silly licenses and laws. If you object when you see possibly fatal circumstances when a handyman is working on gas combustion equipment venting,(even though he says he can do it) you're either fear mongering or desperate for work. No critical thinking necessary!
                  My apologies to you, bluecan...
                  Last edited by NYC LMP; 05-23-2012, 10:54 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Flue for water heater question

                    Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                    Now I see the light. It's the forum that is the problem. Gettinit, Cleanmen2, myself, etc.: We're all wrong. Never mind those silly licenses and laws. If you object when you see possibly fatal circumstances when a handyman is working on gas combustion equipment venting,(even though he says he can do it) you're either fear mongering or desperate for work. No critical thinking necessary!
                    My apologies to you, bluecan...
                    No I did not say that it was not reasonable to point out the danger – my point was that you cannot determine who is capable or not over the net. I have done work involving gas equipment and gas lines – they all had permits and inspections and were found to be safe. I have the gas code and handbook and am fully capable of understanding the theory behind gas combustion and the gas related calcs such as pipe sizing. I also have gas detection equipment, manometer to measure gas pressure etc.

                    You on the other hand are pre-determining over the net that everyone who is not a licensed plumber/gas fitter cannot comprehend what is involved and do the work. I can tell you from personal experience that’s not true.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Flue for water heater question

                      I never doubted your abilities. You sound very capable. Kudos from Plumber Rick reinforce that.
                      Those of us in the business see that most handymen do not do the research or consultation before the task is completed.
                      The picture clearly showed a situation where flue gas spillage was likely with a reduction in pipe size and two diverters.
                      Cleanmen2 showed passion for his craft with his response. He was called a "fear-mongerer and a "drunk" in a post(by Hosh). He sounds like a nice guy to me.
                      Gettinit was treated worse after dispensing advice.
                      The "looking for work" comment on a plumbers' forum smacked of disrespect to me.
                      Just noticed this by you: "Sorry to say this but if you were smart you would probably doing something other than sticking gas pipes together for a living."
                      Let's just let that one sink in...

                      As Robert DeNiro says in Goodfellas: "You insulted him a little bit".

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Flue for water heater question

                        Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                        I never doubted your abilities. You sound very capable. Kudos from Plumber Rick reinforce that.
                        Those of us in the business see that most handymen do not do the research or consultation before the task is completed.
                        The picture clearly showed a situation where flue gas spillage was likely with a reduction in pipe size and two diverters.
                        Cleanmen2 showed passion for his craft with his response. He was called a "fear-mongerer and a "drunk" in a post(by Hosh). He sounds like a nice guy to me.
                        Gettinit was treated worse after dispensing advice.
                        The "looking for work" comment on a plumbers' forum smacked of disrespect to me.
                        Just noticed this by you: "Sorry to say this but if you were smart you would probably doing something other than sticking gas pipes together for a living."
                        Let's just let that one sink in...

                        As Robert DeNiro says in Goodfellas: "You insulted him a little bit".
                        Again from my perspective all that was needed was to point out what needed to be done and let the OP make the correct decision. I made the "looking for work" comment because I genuinely believe it. It seems to pop up frequently on some of the recent threads I've clicked on - in some cases by the same person - hence my comments.

                        I too saw cleanmen2's thread as a pointless rant because it assumes again I do not know what is involved in doing this kind of work.

                        As far as insults I'm sure you can see it has gone both ways on this thread.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Flue for water heater question

                          The difference is your comments leave shrapnel.
                          I get that you feel the OP's choice is his to make. Some plumbers feel that his actions can endanger others.
                          If this was for a backpitched drain line, I would be inclined to side with you.
                          Too many news stories about CO poisoning to fault plumbers for giving the HAP line. If having to judge over the net whether a person is capable of this work, we will prudently side with "no".
                          I could not sit by with a non plumber putting down members with the "looking for work" and "you're a plumber because you're not smart" lines.
                          Hard to throw those lines out without putting down the whole group.

                          Funny thing is, I train twice a week with pro mma fighters, so I know adversity, and I haven't thrown insults like that to anyone in years. And I'm a college graduate. This too distracting for me, back to work

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Flue for water heater question

                            Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                            The difference is your comments leave shrapnel.
                            I get that you feel the OP's choice is his to make. Some plumbers feel that his actions can endanger others.
                            If this was for a backpitched drain line, I would be inclined to side with you.
                            Too many news stories about CO poisoning to fault plumbers for giving the HAP line. If having to judge over the net whether a person is capable of this work, we will prudently side with "no".
                            I could not sit by with a non plumber putting down members with the "looking for work" and "you're a plumber because you're not smart" lines.
                            Hard to throw those lines out without putting down the whole group.

                            Funny thing is, I train twice a week with pro mma fighters, so I know adversity, and I haven't thrown insults like that to anyone in years. And I'm a college graduate. This too distracting for me, back to work
                            Fair enough but please remember that my comments were aimed at specific people and was not meant to be applied to the whole group. The issue of smartness came up due to cleanmen2 implying I was not smart (note I had not mentioned who was smart or not upto that point). So IMO he asked for the comment I made but that was meant specifically for him. No implication to anyone else or as as something to be applied to a group as a whole.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Flue for water heater question

                              Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                              He was called a "fear-mongerer and a "drunk" in a post(by Hosh).
                              To be fair to my assessment.. it was late night on a Friday and an obvious huge rant after many nice and helpful responses. I mentioned it half in jest but it makes a lot of sense to me to continue with that conclusion. That was my take on it and it makes logical sense. After all there was plenty of good, intelligent back and forth before a very agitated rant that didn't seem to fit in. It wasn't like I came on and said, "look at this great job I did.. I'm not touching it no matter what you say." I said gee thanks, this advice has made me make this a top priority and I will get this done correctly, right away. That's why the rant did not fit it. And that's why blue_can hopped in. Then it went overboard and I can't explain any of that.. it got personal? ehh.. we're men.. we try to hold our ground

                              And it's obvious I came on because I was concerned and wanted more info. Anyone that takes a picture and asks.. "did this installer do it correctly" is out to make sure it is done right.
                              Last edited by Hosh; 05-23-2012, 10:10 PM. Reason: added a bit

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Flue for water heater question

                                Originally posted by Hosh View Post
                                To be fair to my assessment.. it was late night on a Friday and an obvious huge rant after many nice and helpful responses. I mentioned it half in jest but it makes a lot of sense to me to continue with that conclusion. That was my take on it and it makes logical sense. After all there was plenty of good, intelligent back and forth before a very agitated rant that didn't seem to fit in. It wasn't like I came on and said, "look at this great job I did.. I'm not touching it no matter what you say." I said gee thanks, this advice has made me make this a top priority and I will get this done correctly, right away. That's why the rant did not fit it. And that's why blue_can hopped in. Then it went overboard and I can't explain any of that.. it got personal? ehh.. we're men.. we try to hold our ground

                                And it's obvious I came on because I was concerned and wanted more info. Anyone that takes a picture and asks.. "did this installer do it correctly" is out to make sure it is done right.
                                I don't think anyone found fault with you at all. I may be speaking out of turn, but that is what I think.
                                AllurePlumbing.com
                                • leak detection
                                • drain cleaning
                                • utility locating
                                • conductor fault locating
                                • and other specialties.

                                Greensboro NC, Winston-Salem NC, High Point NC, Thomasville NC, Kernersville NC

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