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6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

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  • 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

    Sewage at my home ties into a private sewer system which has been troublesome lately and the check valve I have sometimes does not seal off 100%.

    So I am looking to install a manual shut off valve in the basement of my home just before it exits out the foundation. Original 6" cast iron, plan to cut and use a mission connection.

    I know a 6" cast gate valve is the standard which has been used for years but seem to carry a price tag of $600 or more. Not sure my best place to source on from and also require flange adapter to convert over to mission connection.

    I have found 6" Ball valves which can be found on **** as surplus but new for under $100. They are rated to 150 PSI and are a slip connection. Easy to use mission band on.

    Wondering if a 6" ball valve is OK for a sewer application. I am guessing any solids coming from my home would not cause a sealing problem for this application.

    Any suggestion are appreciated for a valve that will work to meet my needs without spending 800 in materials?

  • #2
    Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

    I believe they are called a knife valve and are used on septic pumper trucks. much easier to operate than a 6'' ball valve.


    look at the a trade magazine called "the pumper" for a list of suppliers. most likely a threaded valve, add nipples and a bands and you're set.


    rick.
    phoebe it is

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

      Yes they are called knife gate valve. J R Smith gas an automatic one called a flood gate. The truth is even the best knife gate valve will foul at times.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

        Backwater valves have been the industry standard for years. In the Chicago area we have 1000's of this style valve installed.

        Inline Manual Shut Off Gate Valve Series Drain - Jay R. Smith MFG Co.


        The key to these or any type of valve is service. Every year they should be opened up cleaned and greased. The one pictured above uses a gate valve and also has a brass flapper check valve.


        Another way to prevent sewer back ups is installing a flood control system. There are two common types of flood control systems.


        First is installing a manhole outside the home that uses two check valves on the sewer line, then an open tee on the house side of the check valves, with a pit that is deeper than the sewer with an ejector pump installed in the pit. So when the city sewer backs up the check valves close off. Now the house water can not pass the closed valve so it overflows out of the open tee into the pit. The pump then pumps the house water to the other side of the check valves.





        The other system can be done outside or inside if you have the room. You cut into the sewer and install a ejector pit. The whole house drains into the ejector pit, and the pump ties back into the sewer after a 6' or higher lift. This type of system is basically a lift station.


        The best option is converting to an overhead sewer system. This involves cutting the toilet stack and routing it through a wall and connecting it to the sewer outside. On the inside the basement drains are disconnected from the sewer and ran to an ejector pit which connects to the overhead sewer. the sewer pipe that enters the home under the foundation is discontinued and capped off on the inside as well as the outside.
        Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
        Ron's Facebook
        A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
        Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
        Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

          Valves and Gates. Valterra, Flap Gate and more




          Call them for a catalog. They also have a wholesale price list.
          ~~

          ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

            Originally posted by SewerRatz View Post
            Backwater valves have been the industry standard for years. In the Chicago area we have 1000's of this style valve installed.

            Inline Manual Shut Off Gate Valve Series Drain - Jay R. Smith MFG Co.


            The key to these or any type of valve is service. Every year they should be opened up cleaned and greased. The one pictured above uses a gate valve and also has a brass flapper check valve.


            Another way to prevent sewer back ups is installing a flood control system. There are two common types of flood control systems.


            First is installing a manhole outside the home that uses two check valves on the sewer line, then an open tee on the house side of the check valves, with a pit that is deeper than the sewer with an ejector pump installed in the pit. So when the city sewer backs up the check valves close off. Now the house water can not pass the closed valve so it overflows out of the open tee into the pit. The pump then pumps the house water to the other side of the check valves.





            The other system can be done outside or inside if you have the room. You cut into the sewer and install a ejector pit. The whole house drains into the ejector pit, and the pump ties back into the sewer after a 6' or higher lift. This type of system is basically a lift station.


            The best option is converting to an overhead sewer system. This involves cutting the toilet stack and routing it through a wall and connecting it to the sewer outside. On the inside the basement drains are disconnected from the sewer and ran to an ejector pit which connects to the overhead sewer. the sewer pipe that enters the home under the foundation is discontinued and capped off on the inside as well as the outside.
            I really like that JR Smith valve. We do not have those out here but that might be because we don't have combined systems out West. I can see how backwater valves are real money makers in areas with combined systems. What is the wholesale cost of a 4" 7150?

            On your second example, it looks like a dewatering system for the foundation and an ejector system to protect the basement. However, wouldn't you still need a backwater valve if the first floor water closet was below the upstream manhole?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              I really like that JR Smith valve. We do not have those out here but that might be because we don't have combined systems out West. I can see how backwater valves are real money makers in areas with combined systems. What is the wholesale cost of a 4" 7150?

              On your second example, it looks like a dewatering system for the foundation and an ejector system to protect the basement. However, wouldn't you still need a backwater valve if the first floor water closet was below the upstream manhole?

              Mark
              Around here most homes first floor is above the grade of the city sewer manhole, so the backwater valve would not be needed since the water would have to pool up out in the street and yard before it reaches the level to back up into the home.

              There are some cases where the property is set in a valley where the grade of the manhole is higher than the 1st floor water closet yes you would. I have had homes with a back on a slab home and the back up was due to the city sewer backing up. The manhole was 8" higher than the slab. Ever since that one job, I always check the city sewer for flow first so I do not waste the customers time.


              Josam makes one as well and they have a good graphic with a cross section to show the insides. I have customers that have this style valve in their homes that are going on 60+ years old and the valves preform flawlessly, as long as they are maintained.


              Last edited by SewerRatz; 03-05-2014, 09:34 AM.
              Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
              Ron's Facebook
              A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
              Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
              Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                I really like that JR Smith valve. We do not have those out here but that might be because we don't have combined systems out West. I can see how backwater valves are real money makers in areas with combined systems. What is the wholesale cost of a 4" 7150?

                On your second example, it looks like a dewatering system for the foundation and an ejector system to protect the basement. However, wouldn't you still need a backwater valve if the first floor water closet was below the upstream manhole?

                Mark
                Mark,


                Here is a link to the price list for the JR Smith 7150 http://www.jrsmith.com/uploads/fileL..._7150_7221.pdf They have it listed at $3300.00 for ductile CI and $4180 for the galvanized CI
                Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                Ron's Facebook
                A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                  I'd have to know a little more information maybe, but you would probably be better off all around installing a sewer popper relief outside. But more importantly, bringing the private system up to date i.e. functioning properly.
                  Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 03-05-2014, 06:46 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                    A bit long winded but here is the complete info on the sewer and home situation that I know.

                    Home was built in the 1960's. Has a well and used to have a septic field until a 1/4 acre of the lot was sold off to a new home builder on the south side of the lot. At this point home was tied into the sewer system of a large condo association. Condo association sewer system is considered private and is not maintenanced by the city. Response times are not all the fast to cure the problems.

                    Condo association sewer system is 10" clay and has multiple issues due to homeowners flushing anything and everything. Typically grease log causing back up. Also shifted and cracked clay tiles. Condo buildings are on a overhead sewer for the multiple 4 story buildings. I show signs of sewage when the sewage level reaches about 1.5' from grade level at the manhole my sewage into at the rear of my property line.

                    Home current lay out is as follows. Kitchen drains to a "crock" outside the home to separate grease, this exits the basement about 4' above basement floor . First floor bath and basement bath use a common stack on the north side of the home which go to below grade in basement. On the south side of the home a first floor bath goes to below grade in basement. Multiple floor drains in basement. All these tie together and exit rear of home on the south side and then head 250' to condo association manhole. 6" SDR with a clean out and check valve 15' from rear of home.

                    Lived in the home for three years until first back up happened but now a backup seems to happen every six months. First time resulted in 3" of sewage in the basement. The following occurrences did not result in sewage in the basement since the previous homeowner installed a 2" pipe from the floor drain just below the basement floor to the sump pit which pumps it to a 4" drain tile that goes about 40' into the back yard below grade. The first time it backed up the 2" pipe was partially blocked it dryer sheets and could not keep up with the flow due.

                    I know a overhead sewer conversion would be ideal to stop any future backups but the cost is going to be more than I am capable of affording at the moment since the basement is in need of drain tile as well which will be installed in the next month or two.

                    The Josam and JR smith combo valves are looking to be 4-6 thousand $$

                    The valterra valve is rated to 10psi which I am not sure is up to the task at hand due to the pressure the condo association creates? These can be purchased for $250 which is nice but might not handle the pressure??

                    Any other thoughts with the additional info listed above??
                    Last edited by lj973gm; 03-05-2014, 09:00 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                      10 psi is over 20' of head. 1' = .433 psi. Also a sewer is really only required to hold 10' head or 5psi.

                      Realize most cast iron backwater valves will fail if not properly maintained. Plastic backwater valves are less prone to failure as they dont rust. But are easily damaged if someone snakes through the valve.

                      How deep will this valve be installed?

                      Rick.
                      phoebe it is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                        Unless I am missing something won't a valve keep you from using your plumbing as it will fill up from the valve (when closed) to the first fixture.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                          It is 10' max below grade.

                          So it seems that valterra valve may meet my needs. As I am only seeing roughly 5 psi. Probably even less since the back flow valve is limiting most of the flow.

                          Yes, a shut off valve stops that home from using any water but it also keeps floaters out of your basement.

                          Currently non code compliant 2" pipe installed from the previous homeowner will allow me use of the homes water but it will have to pump out of the pit.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                            I have seen the plastic valves blow out and make a huge mess. The Josam , or JR Smith valve is your best bet. Figure roughly 6K installed. The flood control system which has the pump to allow you to use water during a backflow instance, is aprox $12K to 15K installed, an overhead sewer depending on accessibility to the plumbing in the basement, we have done these for around the same price as a flood control system, $12K to $15K.


                            There is another option called the Clean Check. It's a flapper valve installed outside and can be easily serviced from above ground through an oversized cleanout access. I have installed a few of these and they work well. Clean Check Extendable Backwater Valves


                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3IFOSdM1Y8





                            Last edited by SewerRatz; 03-06-2014, 05:31 PM.
                            Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417
                            Ron's Facebook
                            A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in:
                            Tankless Water Heaters | Drain and Sewer Cleaning
                            Sump and Ejector Pumps | Backflow RPZ Testing

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 6" valve for sewer shutoff? Gate or ball, PVC or Cast

                              I have that exact clean check installed less than a year ago and even pulled it up to clean the flap during the time the sewage was entering my basement last week and it was not sealing off 100%.

                              So that is the main reason I need a real shut off.

                              I would rather go metallic valve of some sort over PVC.

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