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  • #31
    PLUMBER, YOU WISH YOU HAD A PROPRESS FOR THE 3'' COUPLING. IN AND OUT IN MINUTES AND NO FLAME, HEAT, OR LEAK.
    TIMES ARE CHANGING, WE NEED TO CHANGE TOO, TO KEEP UP WITH THE FLOW.

    I HAVE A 4'' DOMESTIC SYSTEM THAT NEEDS A MANIFOLD BUILT WITH PRESSURE REGULATORS INSTALLED. THE ORIGINAL INSTALLATION DID NOT REQUIRE THE PRESSURE REGS. I AM READY TO PRICE IT OUT AND WILL BE 1/2 OF THE OTHER PLUMBERS BID. WITH VERY LITTLE WATER DOWN TIME. LESS THAN 1 HOUR.
    SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT FOR THE FUTURE.

    RICK.

    Comment


    • #32
      Rick,

      The use of a propress would have required opening the wall to allow room for the tool. I am not convinced that Propress is best for new installation work. Those o-rings are not going to last forever. All systems expand and contract, a solid fitting will expand and contract with the pipe. I think a system full of o-rings is a system full of potential problems. They are fine for out in the open repairs, Or to make a fast tie in for add ons (if the joint will be accessable).

      My personal opinion is not entirely positive about the pro press system. Its just my opinion.
      Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by plumber:
        Rick,

        The use of a propress would have required opening the wall to allow room for the tool. I am not convinced that Propress is best for new installation work. Those o-rings are not going to last forever. All systems expand and contract, a solid fitting will expand and contract with the pipe. I think a system full of o-rings is a system full of potential problems. They are fine for out in the open repairs, Or to make a fast tie in for add ons (if the joint will be accessable).

        My personal opinion is not entirely positive about the pro press system. Its just my opinion.
        Plumber,

        I agree with you an "Pro-Press". Maybe guys like us are falling behind the times. But a system that relays on o-rings is questionable to me. I've looked into it, and apparently it is used extensivly in Europe. But, if a system fails, you will have Utah sitting at the opposing laywer's bench pointing out that you did not follow the exact manufacturer's spects. I don't need that kind of problem.
        the dog

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by plumber:
          Rick,

          The use of a propress would have required opening the wall to allow room for the tool. I am not convinced that Propress is best for new installation work. Those o-rings are not going to last forever. All systems expand and contract, a solid fitting will expand and contract with the pipe. I think a system full of o-rings is a system full of potential problems. They are fine for out in the open repairs, Or to make a fast tie in for add ons (if the joint will be accessable).

          My personal opinion is not entirely positive about the pro press system. Its just my opinion.
          Plumber,

          I agree with you an "Pro-Press". Maybe guys like us are falling behind the times. But a system that relays on o-rings is questionable to me. I've looked into it, and apparently it is used extensivly in Europe. But, if a system fails, you will have Utah sitting at the opposing laywer's bench pointing out that you did not follow the exact manufacturer's spects. I don't need that kind of problem.

          Utah is right on protecting yourself. Stay with the tried and true.

          Plumber Rick,

          When is the last time I worked on a home with high security? Never. I don't work on homes.

          I have worked on high security defense installations that required FBI background checks. But, none of this is relavant to the topic.

          the dog
          the dog

          Comment


          • #35
            As a piece of general advice,

            I would highly reccomend not using flammable devices in a DWV system. After reviewing the posts on this thread, I noticed someone recommending smoke grenades for finding leaks. Keep in mind people, sewers and drains emite methane, which is highly flamable. Let's play it safe out their compadres. Don't want to see anyone blown-up over a sewer line.

            the dog
            the dog

            Comment


            • #36
              plumbdog10,

              The City of Henderson lost two workers to sewer gas recently. When a third one tried to rescue the first two workers they almost lost him as well.

              One of the issues I see ignored quite often is the requiements for plumbing vents to terminate three feet above or ten feet away from any opening into a building. That includes ANY openings, but most only apply it to windows and doors.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #37
                GUYS, PROPRESS IS AN O-RING SEAL THAT IS CRIMPED TO PREVENT MOVEMENT. THE O-RING IS ACTUALLY COMPRESSED TO SHRINK, COMPRESS THE RUBBER TO FORM TIGHT AROUND THE PIPING.

                LETS THINK ABOUT THE MILLIONS OF VICTAULIC JOINTS OUT THERE THAT HAVE YET TO FAIL.
                HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER HOOKED UP A WATER FILTER SYSTEM WITH A "JON GUESS" STYLE FITTING. HOW ABOUT THE NEWER "SHARK BITE" FITTINGS THAT ARE OUT THERE NOW?

                GUYS, PLUMBING IS CHANGING AND ONE HAS GOT TO CHANGE WITH IT. HOW MANY OF US USE A LEAD JOINT OR DURHAM ON ALL OF OUR CAST IRON WASTE JOINTS? I THINK NO HUB IS HERE TO STAY. ABS, PEX, CSST, ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF NEWER BUILDING MATERIALS THAT WILL PASS YOU BY IF THEY HAVN'T YET.

                AS FAR AS JOINT FAILURE GOES WITH PROPRESS, IT'S WARRANTED FOR 50 YEARS. SHOW ME ANYWHERE A SOLDERED JOINT CARRIES A 50 YEAR WARRANTY. EVEN A PROPERLY PREPARED, PROFESSIONALLY SOLDERED JOINT IS NOT GUARANTEED FOR 50 YEARS.

                DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN TO EUROPE RECENTLY? THEY ARE KICKING OUR BUTTS IN PLUMBING TECKNOWLEDGLY. THE USE OF PLASTICS, (PEX, HDPE) IS WIDE SPREAD THERE TOO. HYDRONICS, SNOW MELTING, IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE USE OF PLASTIC PIPING IN NON POTABLE SYSTEMS. UNDERGROUND GAS SYSTEMS AND PIPE LINERS ARE ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE OF HDPE PIPES.

                I GUESS THE OLD SAYING OF "YOU CAN'T TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICKS" PROBABLY HOLDS MORE TRUE HERE, DOG!

                CONTINUE WORKING WITH OLD STYLE MATERIALS AND METHODS. I'LL CONTINUE INVESTING IN THE NEWER PROVEN, TESTED, AND APPROVED MATERIALS WE HAVE AVALIABLE TO US.

                BY THE WAY, I HAVE 4 T-DRILLS FOR SALE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE 15 YEARS BEHIND IN THE TIMES.
                I'VE REPLACED THEM WITH 3 PROPRESSES.
                ALSO I'LL THROW IN A FREE LEAD POT FOR THE FIRST 4 BUYERS.

                DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME AT THE NEXT TRADE SHOW, IT WILL BORE YOU. TOO MUCH NEW STUFF.

                MARK, I'LL MEET YOU FOR BREAKFAST AT THE NEXT SHOW.

                RICK.

                [ 08-13-2005, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

                Comment


                • #38
                  Well, as I mentioned it was only my opinion about the pro press. I remember how orange burg, or was it orange bird, sewer pipe was going to revolutionize the plumbing industry, as well as at least a half dozen new plastic systems that have come and gone. Each was touted as the best thing since the flush toilet. After millions of dollars in failure costs, where are these things now? And these product warranties rarely cover business lost to customers, down time, labor, demolition repair and a dozen other expensive related items.

                  Rick,
                  That manifold you mentioned, if it were exposed, I would pre fab as much as that manifold as possible with solder joints then use propress fittings only at the location of the tie ins when I spliced in the manifold, IF there was a water drain down problem. . My down time will be no less or more than yours and in my opinion a better job.

                  Some guys like rotary engines, some like hybrids, some like big old 454s its all a matter of opinion. I have never seen a big ol 454 fail prematurely unless its user was a complete idiot.
                  Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    LOL - I can't wait for my Orangeburg to finally fail. I have always hated that stuff but will have to wait until I rip out my driveway.

                    I am slow to make changes but I believe some changes are good. The failure we will see in pressed fittings will likely be from unskilled installers. It's always about the weakest link.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Utah,

                      Sounds like the City of Henderson needs to have some confined space training for its workers.

                      I went to school with a fellow who started his own business later in life. He absolutely hated "Saftey Nazis" as he called them. Many workers receive minor to moderate injuries on his jobs and he simply states they are just "stupid people". On a minor repair job he tried to send a laborer into a 12ft manhole without first checking the air quality. The laborer refused and was promptly fired. So he sent an untrained dump truck driver down to install the temp expansion plug so they could effect their work down stream. The man collapsed after only a few moments, without calling any professional medical people first he sent his own little brother into the hole, when his brother collapsed he then called 911 to ask for help. (obviously he would never go into a hole) Two dead men and one lawsuit later he is still one of the most arrogant and unsafe contractors in the Midwest.

                      Untrained and poorly trained men, with children and a wife to care for will do as they are told so as to not lose their jobs. It happens all the time in this country and yet these poorly trained men are hurt and killed frequently. Still, when someone pushes for enforcement of even the most basic and common sense safety practices they are called saftey freaks, $h!+ disturbers, radicals and trouble makers. I only wish I was there instead of the guy who was sent home, no one would have entered that hole until it was sniffed with properly working equipment.
                      Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Yes some changes are good, I don't ride a horse and I do fly on airplanes. I can even see the use of propress in easily accessable areas when a fast repair or tie in is necessary. But if anyone thinks o-rings dont fail do to contraction and expansion they don't remember the first space shuttle explosion.(just one dramatic example of o-ring failure). Copper fittings and pipe will expand and contract at the same rate, that o-ring will not. Eventually it will be a problem, mark my words.

                        It will be the poorly trained installer who is fired from his job simply for doing as he was instructed. Its never the unscrupulous contractor who sat at the coffee shop all morning while his "boys" were out executing his work. Or sat in the casino spending excess profits while his under paid untrained workers wondered how to pay for their used cars.

                        Training IS the key word. Training in the SAFE and proper methods used to carry out the workers trade craft benefits everyone. The problem a lot of people have with training is that well trained men want to be paid more than poorly trained men and that effects todays bottom line. Some people can't see past this weeks profit figures and see that well paid and well trained men are more effective and productive than poorly trained and poorly paid men.
                        Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          PLUMBER, OUT OF CURIOUSITY, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE TO DRAIN DOWN THE 3'' COPPER SYSTEM, CUT AND CLEAN THE PIPE AND FITTINGS, SOLDER AND FLUSH OUT THE LINE?

                          DID'NT YOU NEED ACCESS TO CUT THE TUBING AND WORK THE TORCH AND SOLDER. DID YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT AN OPEN FLAME IN THE FINISHED WALLS?

                          NOT SEEING YOUR ACTUAL WORK ENVIROMENT, I'LL GIVE YOU MY PICTURE OF THE FIX.

                          #1- SHUT OFF THE WATER AND BLEED OFF THE PRESSURE.
                          #2- CUT OUT THE SECTION OF BAD JOINTS WITH EITHER A SAWZALL, IF SCRAP SHAVINGS DON'I POSE A CONCERN, OR TUBING CUTTER. EITHER WAY YOU CUT IT, I'LL NEED TO TOO.
                          #3 REAM THE INNER EDGE OF THE COPPER. NO CLEANING OR FLUXING REQUIRED.
                          #4 CUT A NEW SECTION OF 3'' COPPER TUBING - 1/8''.
                          #5 SLIDE 2- 3'' PROPRESS SLIP COUPLINGS ONTO THE NEW SECTION OF PIPE AND USE A MARKER TO MARK THE LOCATION OF THE HALFWAY POINT OF EACH JOINT.
                          #6 SLIP THE PROPRESS CRIMPING RING AROUND THE COUPLING AND START YOUR CRIMP CYCLE. 4 SECONDS LATER CRIMP THE OTHER HALF OF THE COUPLING. MOVE O THE SECOND REPAIR COUPLING AND REPEAT THE 2- 4 SECOND CRIMPS.
                          DID I FORGET TO TELL YOU THAT WHILE YOU'RE WAITING FOR THE WATER TO DRAIN AND STOP DRIPPING SO YOU CAN SOLDER IT, I'M DONE AND AT THE NEXT JOB.

                          AS FAR AS GETTING THE PROPRESS IN THE WALL, IT DOESN'T TAKE UP ANY MORE ROOM THAN A SAWZALL. AND THE JAWS SWIVEL. YOU CAN POINT THE TOOL OUTSIDE OF THE WALL, JUST LIKE YOU WOULD DO TO CUT OUT THE JOINT. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, HOW DID YOU FIND ENOUGH ROOM TO WORK YOUR TORCH AROUND THE 3'' JOINTS AND KEEP THE FLAME AND SOLDER CONSTANT?

                          OUT OF CURIOSOTY PLUMBER, HOW LONG DID THE REPAIR TAKE FROM START TO FINISH INCLUDING DRAINING DOWN THE SYSTEM TO SOLDER? WHAT WAS THE APPROX. COST FOR LABOR AND MATERIALS.

                          MY WAY WOULD HAVE BEEN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES. ASSUMING THE WATER DRIPPING WHILE WORKING WOULD NOT HARM THE SURROUNDINGS. IF WATER DRIPPING WAS A PROBLEM, THEN I WOULD BE SLOWED DOWN ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS UNIQUE ENVIROMENT. ALSO IF I WOULD HAVE USED THE PROPRESS IN THE ORIGINAL INSTALLATION, THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A REPAIR NEEDED.

                          MY POINT BEING IS TIME IS MONEY. SURE MY INITIAL INVESTMENT FOR THE TOOL AND THE JAWS 1/2'' - 4'' WAS APPROX. $4,000. BUT IN MY FIELD OF WORK, THIS IS A SMALL AMOUNT TO PAY FOR HIGH TECH EQUIPTMENT. EVER PRICE OUT A CAMERA SYSTEM, JETTER TRAILER, PIPE MACHINE, OR TRENCHLESS PIPE BURSTER? JUST THE COST OF BEING IN BUSINESS. MY ACCOUNTANT IS ALWAYS AMMUSED AT ALL THE NEW "TOYS" TO WRITE OFF EACH YEAR.

                          PLUMBER, I HELD OFF FOR 4 YEARS PRIOR TO THIS PURCHASE. AFTER VISITING EUROPE ON MY HONEYMOON, I PURCHASED MY FIRST PROPRESS AT THE NEXT TRADE SHOW. I GUESS MY WIFE IS NOW THE 1/2 OWNER OF THESE 3 TOOLS. SHE LOOKS FOWARD TO THE NEXT PIPEBURSTING JOB. SHE OPERATES THE MACHINE VIA THE HYDRAULIC JOYSTICK. JUST WAIT TILL SHE FINDS OUT HOW MUCH FUN THE PROPRESS IS TO OPERATE. I'LL HAVE TO FIND MORE "TOYS" TO PLAY WITH. MAYBE A BOBCAT?

                          MY 2 CENTS WORTH. (CAN I WRITE THIS OFF?)

                          RICK

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            MARK, IF YOU WANT YOUR ORANGEBIRD REPLACED BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE, CALL ME, MY WIFE IS ASKING TO PLAY WITH THE "TOYS" SOON. I'VE PIPE BURST ORANGEBIRD BEFORE. NO PROBLEM, IT IS EASY AS LONG AS YOU CAN FISH A CABLE THROUGH IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

                            "WILL WORK FOR FOOD"
                            BUT THE WIFE WANTS A NEW PAIR OF SHOES.

                            RICK.

                            [ 08-13-2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Plumber,

                              Iā€™m all about safety and have closed more than one job down. I have two brothers and a son-in-law who all work for the City of Los Angeles in the steam generating plants. As electrical works they are working in one of the most dangerous environments there is. The rules in the plant make OSHA rules look reckless.

                              My son-in-law is a safety trainer and my youngest brother is in charge of writing all of the training programs including the safety programs. They have both worked for me in the past and anything I have missed in my tail gate meetings they are sure to correct me.

                              My brother-in-law on the other hand sent a helper into a 6ā€™+ trench (no shoring) to do a sewer tie in on a replacement. I learned about the accident while watching the news. As soon as I saw it on the news I headed to the job. There must have been 50 rescuers working the site. The accident should have never happened.

                              Apparently my bother-in-law did not locate the sewer prior to replacing it. He then had a backhoe operator who was not much brighter than my bother-in-law. The first trench missed the city tie in by about 6ā€™ so they buried it and dug a new trench parallel to the first trench. While the helper was in the ditch the backhoe was sitting on the fill of the first ditch. Of course the wall of the ditch caved in and trapped the helper.

                              OSHA hit my brother-in-law with a $10,000 fine and the equipment operator with a $25,000 fine. The fine was nothing compared to the guilt my brother-in-law still feels.

                              The helper survived with a bruised kidney which healed completely but was iffy for a while. My brother-in-law does not replace sewers any longer nor have any employees.
                              .
                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
                                MARK, IF YOU WANT YOUR ORANGEBIRD REPLACED BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE, CALL ME, MY WIFE IS ASKING TO PLAY WITH THE "TOYS" SOON. I'VE PIPE BURST ORANGEBIRD BEFORE. NO PROBLEM, IT IS EASY AS LONG AS YOU CAN FISH A CABLE THROUGH IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

                                "WILL WORK FOR FOOD"
                                BUT THE WIFE WANTS A NEW PAIR OF SHOES.

                                RICK.
                                My problem is the sewer has not given me a problem in 30+ years so I don't feel a need to replace it yet. I am thinking about replacing the driveway with paver stones and then I will replace the sewer. I need to look into you machine and how it works but for my house I think I'd prefer replacement pipe.

                                I've noticed a lot of people using different linings for galvanize pipe instead of repiping. I believe it is a waste of money but we will see.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                                Comment

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