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  • #46
    Rick,

    As mentioned I made access to the fitting by removing a recessed sanitary napkin dispoer on one side and a paper towel dispenser on the other. These were not directly across from each other nor were they exactly beside the fitting. The only tools involved in the wall were the torch head, hatchet sawzall, file, sand screen, flux brush, inspection mirror and work light. There would not have been room for your pro press tool or even a tubing cutter for pipe of that size. I also mentioned that I used a shop vac to vacate the line, the vac hose did not need to be entered into the wall.

    This warranty repair was in a college so all of the sheet rock was fire rated on steel studs. Only a 6 month apprentice would have a problem with an open flame in this wall. (still I always set a fire extinguisher within reach of any torch work in a building full of kids).

    Rick, how much would it cost you to have a tile man, sheetrock contactor, wall paper hangers, painters and the partition contractors come in behind you to re install and re-do all of their work(which was new and still under warranty)? You would have had to re install backing which would have meant a sizeable hole in a very expensive wall. The cost of the wall repair alone would have been thousands dollars. Plus at least one major toilet room would have been closed while wall repairs were being made. Pro Press was probably the worst of all possible options for this repair. Yet sight unseen you insinuate I don't have a clue about pro press and should have used one here.

    The repair to the wall would have had to have been 100% un noticeable to be accepted by the original general contractor and the college board. MOST CONTRACTORS NO LONGER HAVE TO HONOR THEIR WARRANTY IF ANOTHER CONTRACTOR HAS COME IN AND KNOCKED A BIG OL HOLE IN THEIR WORK. Unless they do the repairs themselves. They usually charge substantially for this.

    Rick, you would have spent as much time flushing out the line as I had to. The only thing down stream was flushometers. removing a plunger from the flushometer at the last closet was all I needed to do.

    Also, speed to the next job is not always my primary concern. Its important to be sure. But there are many other considerations besides speed when you have
    a major warranty call back on a very large and expensive reconstruction job that involved a leak between two very expensive walls.

    One other note, Propress fittings cannot always be used particularly if they are not speced by the engineer. Also you assume there is room for two couplings on each side of your fitting to be replaced. Thats very uncommon in many commercial applications.
    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

    Comment


    • #47
      Utah,

      It is good that the worker was not permenantly disabled or worse. The good news is at least your brother in law was man enough to feel remorse and had the conscience to get out of the business before he killed someone, or two.

      I too have an in law thats about as sharp as a spoon. At least she's not in a position to hurt anyone.

      You are definantly one lucky fellow to have your orange burg last 30 years, or you don't eat solids.
      Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

      Comment


      • #48
        Rick, in reply to your question,

        WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, HOW DID YOU FIND ENOUGH ROOM TO WORK YOUR TORCH AROUND THE 3'' JOINTS AND KEEP THE FLAME AND SOLDER CONSTANT?
        ------------------------------------------------

        It was not easy. I cut the heck out of my upper torso and arms twisting into position to work. A helper handed me what he could through the recessed paper towel opening.

        I cannot imagine not cleaning the outside of pipe with propress. There is a small amount of the exterior of the pipe exposed to the potable water between the o ring and fitting in a propress system. I have no clue as to what may have crawled across that pipe or what it might have laid in prior to installation. To not clean that pipe prior to installation almost makes me gag.
        Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

        Comment


        • #49
          Years ago I had to replace a 5”X2” tee in a hot water pipe in the middle of the night. The building had the hot & cold water feeding from the ceiling of the 12th floor along with a 2-pipe Hydronic system. All four horizontal pipes were 5” and running parallel to each other above a T-bar ceiling.

          I started by getting the 2” branch first as it was on top of the fitting and not visible unless I stuck my head between the pipes. I then got as much of the top of the fitting as I could until the heat was to hot for my neck.

          To my surprise when I tried to pull my head out I was stuck. Prior to silver soldering the fittings the pipe would move a little. After I had got the top of the pipe the fitting was not giving anything. I thought of cutting the pipe to free myself but didn’t want to try and find another tee that late at night.

          I ended up having my helper unbolt the hangers both directions along the pipe and then pry the pipes apart. It took him about an hour to free me and boy was I embarrassed. We had the water back on before the residents woke in the morning and then I took my helper to a well deserved breakfast.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #50
            This happened years ago. My older brother, about 5 at the time, was playing near the top of the stairs in our parents home. We were horseplaying, as brothers are want to do, and my brothers head became caught between the ballisters of the railing. Well brothers are sometimes ornery things, I went out and played with his Tonka trucks that he normally would not let me touch while he thought I was getting our parents to help free him.

            I was quite surprised when my angry father came out to whoop my tail as I thought it was a very funny thing at the time. The point is, after an hour are you sure your helper deserved breakfast?
            Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

            Comment


            • #51
              LOL - If it had not been such a long trip to the truck I may have felt he was sand bagging me. The first trip was just to get a second ladder and a piece of pipe to pry with. Additional trips were for tools to take the hangers apart and rope to secure the pipe.

              In retrospect I think a companion flange and tee would nave been a better repair than the less-stop coupling and tee but I had to use what was availabe in the shop.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ToUtahNow:
                Plumber,

                I’m all about safety and have closed more than one job down. I have two brothers and a son-in-law who all work for the City of Los Angeles in the steam generating plants. As electrical works they are working in one of the most dangerous environments there is. The rules in the plant make OSHA rules look reckless.

                My son-in-law is a safety trainer and my youngest brother is in charge of writing all of the training programs including the safety programs. They have both worked for me in the past and anything I have missed in my tail gate meetings they are sure to correct me.

                My brother-in-law on the other hand sent a helper into a 6’+ trench (no shoring) to do a sewer tie in on a replacement. I learned about the accident while watching the news. As soon as I saw it on the news I headed to the job. There must have been 50 rescuers working the site. The accident should have never happened.

                Apparently my bother-in-law did not locate the sewer prior to replacing it. He then had a backhoe operator who was not much brighter than my bother-in-law. The first trench missed the city tie in by about 6’ so they buried it and dug a new trench parallel to the first trench. While the helper was in the ditch the backhoe was sitting on the fill of the first ditch. Of course the wall of the ditch caved in and trapped the helper.

                OSHA hit my brother-in-law with a $10,000 fine and the equipment operator with a $25,000 fine. The fine was nothing compared to the guilt my brother-in-law still feels.

                The helper survived with a bruised kidney which healed completely but was iffy for a while. My brother-in-law does not replace sewers any longer nor have any employees.
                .
                Mark
                I can't speek for the present, but about seven yars ago I ran a project at Hyperion Sewage Treatment Plant in El Segundo, California. This plant is run by LA Department of Water and Power. We were installing a chemical treatment system involving acid and caustic piping, tanks, etc. Part of the contract involved installing new area drains in the tank farm area. The new system was to be tied-into an existing 8" ductile iron line. Before we tied into the system, I coordinated with the engineers as to what substances were drained into the systems, and wether we needed to schedule a shut-down. I was told that it was nothingh more that residual drain water.

                I didn't trust that assesment, because I had noticed a catch-basin directly in line with our trench that was emiting steam. I requested a site drawing of the area we were working in. It confirmed that that was a main blow-off line for huge boilers.

                When I brought this up to the LA city engineers, they asked where I got that drawing. I told them from your office. Their response was, "Huh, we've never seen that."

                I told them that we would require a shut-down. They said the best they could do was 30 minuties. I told them that we would try, but the first trickle of blow-off, we would leave. Their biggest concern was that if we left it open sand would flow into the drain line. ... I didn't care. My concern was my crew members.

                This is the same facility that sent a non-complience letter to my office because I wasn't wearing a hard hat while on to of a tank.

                Don't ever tell me about real safety issues when it come to the City of LA.

                the dog
                the dog

                Comment


                • #53
                  That was good thinking Dog, it was quite possible that all of those proclamations of ignorance regarding the drawings you requested were just lazy people making excuses for not doing their jobs.

                  It proves that the men on the job site must take responsibility for their own safety and that of those working for them. An electrician was killed here recently when he was called into a power plant to do an emergency repair. The plant superintendent assured him that all power was cut off to the area. The very first line he touched killed him.

                  Your example goes to show no matter what a mans title or how self important a person thinks he is, take no one elses word on matters of safety. You may well have saved a mans life that day Dog.
                  Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I know very little about Hyperion Treatment Plant other than we did some work there once on a communication contract. What I do know is an engineer there is not always the type of engineer you need. They have several different departments within the department. A plant engineer is not an operations engineer nor is he a waste water engineer.

                    Recently they’ve had problems in some of the power plants with sub contractors used for building new generators. The equipment they are building doesn’t even meet OSHA standards let alone department standards.

                    The result is a pissing match where the safety officers won’t let the equipment go on line and the subs say the department approved the plans the subs submitted. Most of the items are issues like valves four stories off the ground with either no access or a ladder for access but with no landings.

                    The safety I was referring to was on the operation side of the generating stations. They have a very impressive safety record compared to other generating facilities.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      PLUMBER, IN RESPONSE TO YOUR REPAIR OF THE 3'' COPPER LINE. IF YOU GOT A HATCHET SAWZALL INTO THE WORKING AREA, THEN A CORDLESS PROPRESS #320 WOULD HAVE FIT TOO. YES I OWN BOTH THE CORDED AND CORDLESS HATCHET. AS FAR AS CLEANING OF THE COPPER GOES, YOU TOTALLY CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT WAS MEANT. CLEANING IS, SANDING AND FLUXING. NOT WIPING THE DIRT CLEAN. OF COURSE I WOULD WIPE ANY DIRT CLEAN. SANDING OF A WET PIPE, OR A PIPE WITH WATER DRIPPING IS NO FAST TASK. PROPRESS FITTINGS AND THE TUBING THEY CONNECT TO DOESN'T REQUIRE SANDING OR FLUXING. THEREFORE A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME IS SAVED IN PREP WORK. A QUICK WIPE OF THE EXTERIOR PIPE DOESN'T TAKE BUT A FEW SECONDS.
                      ALSO UNLESS YOU CUT THE BAD JOINT DEAD CENTER AND THEN UNSOLDERED IT TO SALVAGE THE PIPE. YOU TOO WOULD HAVE NEEDED 2 FITTINGS AND A PIECE OF PIPE TO FILL IN.

                      TO CONCLUDE, I STATED THAT IN THIS CASE A PROPRESS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH FASTER AND EASIER THAN WHAT YOU HAD TO GO THROUGH. NOT WETHER A PIPE IS WIPED CLEANED. IF THE SAWZALL FIT, THE PROPRESS WOULD FIT. IF THE PROPRESS IS NOT APPROVED BY THE SCHOOL, WELL THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE. ALL I'M SAYING IS IT MUCH FASTER AND TYPICALLY FOOLPROOF WITH A SYSTEM COMPRISED OF PROPRESS. SURE THE FITTINGS COST MORE THAN SOLDERED FITTINGS FOR THE MOST PART, BUT THE TIME IS CUT WAY DOWN, ESPECIALLY IN REPAIR WORK.

                      STILL DON'T BELIEVE ME? READ SOME OF THE POST ON PROPRESS AND SEE WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY. SURE I'M STILL LOOKING FOR A DECENT PRICE ON THE FITTINGS, BUT THAT'S TO SAVE THE CLIENT MONEY. IN THE END THEY PAY THE BILL.

                      ALSO YOU CAN GET A RIDGID REP TO DEMO THE TOOL FOR FREE. MIGHT TRY THAT THE NEXT TIME YOUR IN A BIND.
                      I AM SUBCONTRACTED TO DO WORK FOR A BIG COMMERCIAL PLUMBING CO. THEY DON'T WANT TO INVEST IN THE HIGH END EQUIPTMENT. SO THEY CALL ME TO DO IT FOR THEM. THE MONEY THEY SPEND HIRING ME, ALLOWS ME TO PURCHASE ALL THESE EXPENSIVE TOOLS. KIND OF IRONIC, ISN'T IT?

                      RICK.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        MARK, AS FAR AS A RELINING METHOD GOES ON GALVANIZED PIPE. HERE IS WHAT I KNOW ABOUT IT.
                        THEY START OFF DISCONNECTING ALL THE END OF LINE ANGLE STOPS AND TUB/ SHOWER VALVES. THEN THEY DRY THE LINE WITH AIR. A SERIES OF ABRASIVE GRIT IS THEN BLOWN INTO THE PIPE TO CUT OUT THE RUST DEPOSITS. LAST IS THEN TO APPLY AN EPOXIE TYPE COATING TO SEAL THE PIPE.

                        I'VE ONLY SEEN DEMO TAPES OF THE PROCESS. NEVER THE JOB. IT'S A FRANCHISE TYPE OPERATION WITH ROYALTIES. BIG INITIAL COST FOR EQUIPTMENT AND FRANCHISE.
                        COST SAVINGS TO OWNER IS LESS WALL REPAIRS. DON'T THINK THAT THE JOB IS ANY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN A REPIPE.

                        A LOCAL CO. IS "ACE DURAFLOW". CONTACT THEM FOR EXACT INFO.

                        RICK.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Rick,

                          I am familiar with the system you are talking about and have done some research on it. I just don’t see the reason for doing it. I am the consultant on a 748 unit condominium project that needed repiping. The price to reline was $3,740,000.

                          The home owners wanted to reline to save the mess of repiping and the cost of drywall repairs. During the cleaning process they sand blast the inside of the pipe to clean it. If there are any voids in the pipe which are too large for the epoxy to seal they still need to open the wall and replace the pipe (at additional cost). As this project was having 40-emergency repairs per month there was a high likelihood walls would have to be opened. When the job is completed they give you a 10-year warranty on material failure which does not include any ensuing damages.

                          To do the same job in Type-L hard copper including drywall repairs was $2,692,800. The home owners have to pay for wall coverings if any but the contractor has been real good about avoiding walls other than painted walls.

                          The materials for repiping are guaranteed 50-years by the manufacturer and the contractor covers labor and ensuing damages for 10-years. In addition, the repipe included smoke detectors, earthquake straps and 748 T&P drain lines to the outside which the reline did not.

                          So with a savings to the home owners of $1,100,000 which job looks better to you? That doesn’t mean I don’t believe there isn’t a need for relining I just believe it is limited.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            MARK, I TOTALLY AGREE. IF I THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD PROCESS, I WOULD HAVE PERSUED IT FURTHER AND POSSIBLY BOUGHT INTO IT.

                            THE PIPE BURSTING EQUIPTMENT I OWN DOES REPLACE THE PIPE. THE RELINING EQUIPTMENT FOR SEWERS PUTS AN EPOXIE INNER LINER INTO AN EXISITING SEWER. IF THE SEWER IS FULL OF ROOTS OR HAS BAD OFFSETS, RELINING IS NO GOOD. PIPE BURSTING IS MORE PHYSICAL LABOR, BUT MUCH LESS COST FOR THE RAW MATERIALS, SDR17 HDPE & A COUPLE OF MISSION BANDS.

                            MARK, THINK TWICE ABOUT THOSE INTERLOCKING PAVERS. WHAT THEY DON'T TELL YOU IS WEEDS LOVE TO GROW BETWEEN THE JOINTS. ANTS LOVE TO TUNNEL IN THE SAND BED AND REMOVE THE SAND TO THE SURFACE, THUS CAUSING SETTLEING.
                            I GUESS WEED KILLER AND BUG SPRAY FOR LIFE IS AN OPTION. NOT TO PRACTICAL AROUND MY POOL DECK.

                            RICK.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Rick

                              I'd like to see you do a sewer some day. I don’t want to get into the business but would like to see if it is something I would recommend. Did you buy the package with the trailer and all included?

                              As for the pavers I really don't want to use them but I have really expansive soil and concrete won't hold up. When I bought in this neighborhood (1975) it was know as Sliding Hills Estates.

                              I’ve never had a problem but they lost five homes two doors down from me before I moved in. In addition, they lost two more homes during this last big rain storm season.

                              The interesting part is to see how the developer corrected laterals in the neighborhood. In some areas he tied several homes into an existing lateral of another home. Now that the sewers are starting to fail everyone is pointing fingers elsewhere.

                              Fortunately for me my parents had written the bond for the Developer back in the 60s so I found out which homes were on cut lots and which were on fill. Now when someone wants to build on a fill lot they have to install 80’ caissons for the foundations.

                              I like to work on my motorcycles on the driveway but I'm sure the pavers will make it to where my bike lift won't work. My garage is too crowded to work on the bikes in the garage so I’ll just have to keep putting the pavers off for now.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Wow,

                                I am absolutely amazed. Rick, why are you sitting here wasting your time on an annoymous BBS. You have such great powers of telepathy, your ability to see across the contintent and back in time and through walls shows me that your supernatural powers are far too great for me. My Gosh, I have wasted the last 30 years of my life trying to figure out how to be a plumber. Guess i'll go start the truck and leave the garage door closed. It was an honor to have met superman through the internet.

                                You don't have a stinking clue what was in that wall, closet carriers, urinal carriers studs, cross bracing, backing, hot and cold water lines, vents, and conduit. The fitting in question was barely accessable, perhaps 1/3 of an inch beside the legs of a urinal carrier and the side of the fitting including the armaflex. The piping and fittings speced by the the architect were hard L copper with 95/5 lead free sweat joints. I am not some 2nd day apprentice and your little solid gold, miracle machine would not have worked where I was. There was not room for the machine. Plus there was not room for two propress couplings on either side of the fitting to be repaired.

                                Also I know what cleaning pipe and fittings mean, and I don't play childish games of gotcha on a stupid web site. On the few times I've used a propress I have cleaned the ends of the pipe to be joined with sand screen. This scrapes off any residule rat $h!+ or spider puke that wiping off with a dry or dirty damp rag won't touch. If you want to introduce that into your customers drinking water fine, I don't care. But I won't take that chance when it only takes 25 seconds to clean the end of a 3" pipe with sand cloth. If you need that 25 seconds to get to your next job take it, I guess I am too old and slow to be a plumber equal to that of superman.

                                This started as a thread for plumbers to discuss hard to believe occurances that they have seen and degenerated into you suggesting I don't know how to do my work efficiently.

                                Since you think I don't know anything let me give you a clue. If you look to the left of the "A" on your key board, you will see a key labled "Caps Lock". Try it once, our eyes could use the favor.
                                Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                                Comment

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