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UNDERQUALIFIED CONTRACTORS, PLUMBERS, INSPECTORS.

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  • #61
    MARC, I STILL GET JOBS WITH THE ABS ISSUE. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YEAR, YEARS WERE AFECTED. IT AFFECTS RIGHT NEXT TO THE GLUE JOINT. IT ALSO TAKES A LITTLE STRESS TO GET THE PIPE TO LEAK. IT WAS A NON -VIRGIN ABS RESIN THAT WAS TO BLAME.
    I USE THE BOROSCOPE VERY LITTLE TOO. ALTHOUGH I DID FIX A TUB STOPPER ISSUE WITH IT. THERE WAS A PLASTIC OBJECT THAT SOMEHOW FELL INTO THE TUB VIA THE KOHLER POP UP DRAIN. (I HATE THOSE KOHLER POP UP'S, NOTHING MORE THAN A BIG HAIR CATCHER SPRING). ANYWAYS I WAS ABLE TO SEE THE PROBLEM AND INPROVISE A TOOL TO RETRIEVE THE PLASTIC PART. IT WASN'T GOING TO GO DOWN AND IT WAS TUFF TO PULL IT BACK UP. ANYWAYS WITHOUT THE BOROSCOPE, IT WAS GOING TO BE "MARBLE TIME" ON THE BACK TO BACK GROUND FLOOR SLAB TUB.

    MARK, LOOKS LIKE DOG IS BARKING AT YOU TOO. GLAD AT LEAST THE REST OF US GET ALONG. NOT SURE IF THE MAIL CARRIER DELIVERS HIS MAIL. HE'S BEEN MACED 1 TIME TOO MANY.

    RICK.

    Comment


    • #62
      Rick,

      The bad ABS was for the most part manufactured in 1985 through 1987. The manufacturers with the defective pipes were Phoenix, Centaur, Polaris, Apache and Gable. The ASTM Standards originally said you could only use virgin ABS to manufacture ABS piping.

      Eventually they relaxed the standard to include filler made from regrind of virgin ABS waste materials. An unscrupulous guy in Texas started selling what he called an ABS filler to the above manufactures. As it turned out he used old computer cases and contaminated rubber and just junk in general.

      When we tested the ABS we had a lab use a scanning microscope at 35,000 magnification. The microscope actually gives you a report on the chemicals in the material. We found all sorts of metals and plastics which had nothing to do with ABS.

      The reason the pipe will crack at the glue joints is the Methyl Ethyl Keytone in the glue separates the ABS materials from the non ABS materials. Other areas of the pipe will crack as well but the glue joints seem to be the first failures. The only repair is a complete replacement of the entire suspect pipe.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #63
        THANKS MARK, I WILL PRINT THIS PAGE AND KEEP IT IN MY BOOKS. I TAKE IT THAT THERE IS NO MORE CLASS ACTION MONEY LEFT FOR THE REPAIRS. SOUNDS ALMOST LIKE THE DIP TUBE PROBLEM. WHAT'S NEXT?
        HOW IS PEX HOLDING UP IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY? I THINK FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE THAT PEX IS GOING TO BE ACCEPTED IN CALIF. FOR DOMESTIC WATER AGAIN. WHAT DO YOU HEAR?

        LET'S KEEP THIS TO OURSELVES, DON'T WANT TO STEP ON THE DOG'S PAWS. THOSE FITTERS ARE LIKE THAT.

        THANKS MARK,

        RICK.

        Comment


        • #64
          I believe the class action for ABS was somewhere around two billion dollars. There is still some money left but it is hard to get any of it. Arnie Rodeo was the Plaintiff expert on the case. Part of the settlement says if you have the bad stuff Arnie gets to review all bids. If the bid for repair is higher than Arnie’s estimate, you either take Arnie’s amount or Arnie does the replacement.

          I believe when California finally adopts the 2003 UPC, PEX will be allowed into the State. There is just too much of it out there to ignore it as an alternative material. Of all the PEX pipes I prefer Kitec. When our city first Okayed PEX they asked me to write the requirements for using PEX. I stressed manufacturer’s training for everyone who touched the piping.

          Another issue I have seen lately is failures in CPVC. When installers use Acusto-Plumb isolators on CPVC the CPVC turns into a soft mushy material which pops like a balloon. As it turns out there is a plasticide in the Acusto-Plumb isolator which changes the chemical makeup of CPVC.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #65
            MARK, MANY THANKS,

            MAYBE YOU CAN KEEP ALL OF US UP TO DATE ON ALL THE PROBLEM ITEMS THAT COME UP. I DON'T USE CPVC. AMAZING THAT WITH ALL THE ROCKET SCIENTISTS ASSSOCIATED WITH CPVC, YOU WOULD THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FOUND THIS WITH THE ISOLATORS.

            HOW DO YOU LIKE THE WIRSBORO PEX? I USED THIS A FEW TIMES WHEN IT WAS ALLOWED. A PERSON CAN BUILD MUSCLES WITH THE EXPANDER TOOL.

            HOW DO YOU LIKE THOSE NEW SHARK BITE FITTINGS BY CASH ACME? THEY ALLOW YOU TO ADAPT ALL FORMS OF PEX AND COPPER AND CPVC. ALSO WORK GREAT ON DRIPPING COPPER REPAIR. IT'S A GROWN UP JOHN GUESS FITTING.

            MARK I WISH THAT SOMEONE IN YOUR POSITION WILL MAKE A STAND AND GET RID OF ALL FORMS OF STYRENE/ NDS PIPE. THE PIPE ALLOWS ROOTS AND THE FITTINGS ARE SHORT RADIUS. CAN'T CABLE SNAKE THESE LINES I KEEP BUSY TRYING TO CLEAN / HYDROJET THESE PIPES INSTALLD AROUND POOL DECKS AND YARDS. IF ONLY THE INSTALLER WOULD HAVE SPENT ANOTHER .25 CENTS PER FOOT, THEY COULD HAVE INSTALLED SDR-35 , SCH. 40 PIPING AND I WOULDN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THE OWNER THEIR DILEMA.

            LOT'S OF CODE ISSUES I COULD BRING UP. SOUNDS LIKE ANOTHER TOPIC.

            RICK

            Comment


            • #66
              As it turned out FlowGold and Acusto-Plumb were both aware the materials are incompatible. However, the FlowGold Installation Instructions state you can only use loose fitting clamps so the Acusto-Plumb should not have be used anyways, Then the Acusto-Plumb Installation Instructions say they can only be used on hard copper installations. Both manufacturers thought they were covered. Then an installer thought he would try a hybrid system. Looking at the rest of his installation it was obvious he had never read the FlowGold Installation Instructions.

              I have never had a material failure in the Wirsbo AquaPex. It usually is an installation problem. The reason I prefer the Kitec is the three ply design of the pipe. In addition, Kitec has an almost 50 year record of use in Canada’s hydronic systems and has been pretty trouble free.

              The Cash Acme Shark-Bite fittings amaze me. Even when similar fittings were used with Polybutylene I wonder why they didn’t leak. As neat a fitting as they are I am concerned that they use O-rings for there seal. I’m old school and to me O-rings are renewable materials which eventually will need to be replaced. I know the materials they are using are not suppose to ever break down but it still gives me concern.

              As far as changing things in the Codes it’s tough for us little guys. You have all these large manufacturers and contractors who are lobbying the Code officials and convincing them these materials and systems will cut construction cost making it cheaper for the consumers.

              Some of these systems are pretty good but allow unskilled laborers to install them. The result is installers who do not have a clue as to what they are doing. It’s the dumbing down of the industry we’ve talked about before. If it’s an IAMPO approved system and it is performing it’s hard to be critical of it. It’s when it is not performing that I can start complaining about a system.

              In the early 80s plumbers and developers were using galvanize piping in Santa Clarita because they felt copper piping was not compatible with the water. I found the problem was only with soft copper not hard copper yet the foreign galvanize they were using had bad seams and were failing just as quickly. I had 30-year old homes with domestic galvanize which were fine and was finding failures in 3-month old homes with Korean galvanize.

              It took almost twenty years of people threatening to sue me for my opinions until I was finally vindicated and everyone realized I was right. Domestic galvanize, Mexican galvanize and hard copper are all great materials in Santa Clarita. Soft copper and Asian galvanize piping will usually start leaking within 3-years.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #67
                Pex is not used in Illinois. ABS while still legal is not even stocked by suppilers in my half of the state. It has been illegal to join ABS to any other type of material with solvents since its existance here. All adaptions to ABS from pvc, steel, cast or lead must be made with approved mechanical or compression joints with solid stainless steel bands. ABS male to female pipe adapters are also approved.

                Utah,
                It sounds like developers are allowed to get away with anything out there.
                Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                Comment


                • #68
                  American made galvinized and black pipe have always been superior to the imported garbage I've seen.

                  A lot of the rolled copper that came in from Asia several years ago was not worth the raw material used to make it, even when raw copper was down.. Cerro brass and copper fittings as well as Mueller have been the best in overall consistancy than any other copper manufacturer on the planet. They are located in these United States.

                  As far as cpvc, the only time I ever liked that stuff was the schedule 80 DWV as it could withstand the high tempretures and acid used in a lot of food manufacturing plants. Cast iron is good for most temperatures and petroleum based products but has a problem with a lot of acid.

                  Quest, Pex, and all that other garbage can stay in the trailer park industry. To allow that $h!+ into normal construction is to lower our standards to third world nations. We are better than that, the labor savings is never passed to the consumer anyway.
                  Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by plumber:
                    American made galvinized and black pipe have always been superior to the imported garbage I've seen.

                    A lot of the rolled copper that came in from Asia several years ago was not worth the raw material used to make it, even when raw copper was down.. Cerro brass and copper fittings as well as Mueller have been the best in overall consistancy than any other copper manufacturer on the planet. They are located in these United States.

                    As far as cpvc, the only time I ever liked that stuff was the schedule 80 DWV as it could withstand the high tempretures and acid used in a lot of food manufacturing plants. Cast iron is good for most temperatures and petroleum based products but has a problem with a lot of acid.

                    Quest, Pex, and all that other garbage can stay in the trailer park industry. To allow that $h!+ into normal construction is to lower our standards to third world nations. We are better than that, the labor savings is never passed to the consumer anyway.
                    Plumber,

                    I couldn't agree more with everything you said.
                    the dog

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      plumber,

                      I believe it is illegal to use solvent joints between ABS and PVC in all juridictions. The Installaion Standrads spell out what solvents to use for each system and none of the standards has an ABS to PVC cement.

                      Mark

                      [ 08-05-2005, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        plumber,

                        What opened the door to all of the plastics in California and Nevada was the problems with pin hole leaks in copper piping. In multi-story residential and commercial it was mostly from localized velocity errosion caused by under sized and non reamed copper pipes.

                        In small residential it was in areas with soft copper that used non areated well water that contained suspended CO2. The tell tale sign of the later is the failures would be in horizontal piping.

                        The new construction guys all blamed the failures on the materials while it was really the installations and the non compatible water. In my area CPVC and PEX is only allowed on a case by case basis. Of course unless it's a mobile home which is not governed by the Uniform Codes.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow:
                          plumber,

                          What opened the door to all of the plastics in California and Nevada was the problems with pin hole leaks in copper piping. In multi-story residential and commercial it was mostly from localized velocity errosion caused by under sized and non reamed copper pipes.

                          In small residential it was in areas with soft copper that used non areated well water that contained suspended CO2. The tell tale sign of the later is the failures would be in horizontal piping.

                          The new construction guys all blamed the failures on the materials while it was really the installations and the non compatible water. In my area CPVC and PEX is only allowed on a case by case basis. Of course unless it's a mobile home which is not governed by the Uniform Codes.

                          Mark
                          What opened the door to plastics, was residential track-home contractors looking to reduce the already low wages they pay to their so-called plumbers, and the plastic industries that not only produce the pipe, but also sell propietary tools at inflated prices.

                          Plumber,

                          California restricts ABS dwv systems to reidential structures of two stories or less. CPVC and Pex maybe used in residential water systems with restrictions.
                          the dog

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by plumbdog10:

                            What opened the door to plastics, was residential track-home contractors looking to reduce the already low wages they pay to their so-called plumbers, and the plastic industries that not only produce the pipe, but also sell propietary tools at inflated prices.
                            Actually the manufacturers and contractors lobbyed for the plastic (Pex and CPVC) as a cost saver but the CBSC approved PEX by individual jurisdiction approvals based on problems with pipe failures rather than State wide. That's why you only see it it certain areas like the Highlangs of San Bernandino, Santa Clarita, Bakersfield, Pico Rivera, San Gabriel Valley and parts of unincoporated Los Angeles County ect.
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by plumbdog10:
                              Plumber,

                              California restricts ABS dwv systems to reidential structures of two stories or less. CPVC and Pex maybe used in residential water systems with restrictions. [/QB]
                              That's only partially true

                              In California the first floor is considered the first floor which has 50% or more day lighted. Meaning a garage or walk-out basement which daylights less than 50%is not considered the first floor so you can install ABS two floors above that level. However, jurisdictions like Newport Beach have a restrictions which says if that condition occurs the lowest level must be cast iron or DWV copper.

                              There are a lot of hillside homes which have terraced levels where not all floors are considered one of the two stories.

                              I would rather see all the first floors of multi-level houses installed in cast iron just for noise control.

                              [ 08-05-2005, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                MARK, WHEN I STARTED IN NEW CONSTRUCTION IN 1981, WE WERE ALLOWED 3 STORIES PLUS LOFT FOR ABS. AT 20' VERTICAL FEET WE HAD TO INSTALL AN EXPANSION JOINT AND PRELOAD THE JOINT MIDWAY WITH A SPACER.
                                I HATE TO THINK ABOUT ALL THE ABS WE PUT IN ON A 1600+ UNIT DEVELOPEMENT WITH ALL THE NON VIRGIN RESIN ISSUES THAT CAME ABOUT.

                                ALSO DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE CODE CHANGED ON CODENSATE DRAINS ALLOWING YOU TO DRAIN THE UPPER FLOOR A.C. UNITS INTO A WYE BRANCH ON THE FIRST FLOOR RESIDENTIAL UNIT. LOTS OF CONDENSATION CAN FLOOD OUT A UNIT WHEN THE LINE PLUGS UP. TUFF TO PROPERLY CLEAN A 3/4'' PIPE WITH WATER TYPE FITTINGS.

                                THANKS FOR THE UPDATES.

                                RICK.

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