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  • hot water recic.

    have a 1959 eicler slab on grade, with copper. installed
    a grunfos. home comfort reciric. pump on water heater .
    manifold is on farthest vanity. works great. have it set only for 2 hrs am 2hrs pm. is this a threat to my old copper? i can compromise and elemanate the pm cycle
    what do you think ,please
    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

  • #2
    tool,

    If it serves your needs leave it the way it is. Your only concern would be with localized velocity errosion which would have happened long ago.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #3
      Agreed,

      recycling your hot water for two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening should not cause problems with your water lines. A circ. pum p should not be moving a large amount of water anyway.
      Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

      Comment


      • #4
        thank,s guys , i feel better now. water piping under the slab along with hydronic heat scares me. another concern is elec grounds to copper pipes. maybe it would be wise to run a couple of new ground rods.
        I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

        Comment


        • #5
          If you were installing new groundwire connections I would reccomend not using your copper waterlines. Unless I were about to do either maintenance to my plumbing or electrical I would not worry about the grounding connections.

          Be aware however, and disconnect the grounds before doing any service work to your waterlines. At that time consider changing over to grounding rods.

          Twice I have been badly shocked due to electrical shorts grounding through the plumbing systems of a building. Once through grounds to a copper water system and another time through a ground connection to a cast iron and galvanized drain system. Both times caught me by surprise, the second time only about 6 or 7 years ago caused me to fall from a ladder. If you know your electrical is grounded to the water then you can take proper precautions, its the things we don't know that hurt us.
          Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not sure about all areas but Utah, Nevad and California require a cold water ground, a Ufer ground and a grounding rod.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #7
              TOOL, IT'S GREAT THET YOU CAN GET BY WITH ONLY 4 HOURS A DAY. THE LONGER IT RUNS, THE MORE WEAR AND TEAR. THE MORE HEAT LOSS AND ELECTRIC AND GAS COST. THE REAL BIG ISSUE IS PROPER SIZING. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOUR SYSTEM DOESN'T USE A DEDICATED RETURN LINE, BUT RATHER A HOT COLD MIXING MANIFOLD. IF THIS IS THE CASE, THEN THE PUMP HAS A BUILT IN BYPASS TO STOP THE FLOW WHEN IT COMES UP TO TEMPERATURE. THE LESS THAT YOU CAN GET BY WITH, THE BETTER FOR THE LONGEVITY OF YOUR COPPER.
              REMEMBER THE GRAND CANYON DIDN'T START OFF GRAND. THE CONSTANT FLOW ATE AWAY THE BANKS. A LAKE HAS STANDING WATER AND DOESN'T EAT AWAY AT THE SHORE AS MUCH AS A RIVER. THIS IS A SIMPLE WAY TO LOOK AT IT.

              RICK.

              OK GUYS, GO AHEAD AND SHOT ME DOWN DOG.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not to shoot anyone down but my experience has been:

                Natural oxidation within a copper water system causes patina to be created on the inside of the pipe. The patina is what protects copper piping not the copper itself. Using Rick’s example of the Grand Canyon, if the banks of the Colorado River had been granite there would be no Grand Canyon.

                High velocities within the pipe from poor sizing will cause cavitations at any interruption of laminate flow. The cavitations can create an increase of velocities of up to 10X. So a hot water recirculating system designed at 7fps can hit 70 fps at non-reamed joints or changes of direction. It is the cavitations which wash the patina off and leave the copper unprotected.

                That’s why when you see a hole from localized velocity erosion it is always in a horseshoe shape with a shinning spot leading to a pinhole leak. With a properly sized system there is no wear.

                Mark

                [ 08-21-2005, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #9
                  MARK, YOU'RE RIGHT. THAT'S GETTING TO BE A DAILY STATEMENT. THE SAME REASON WHY WITH THE OLDER GALVANIZED SYSTEMS. WHICH MOST WERE NOT FULLY REAMED. DON'T REMEMBER A PIN HOLE ISSUE. JUST LOTS OF RUST.
                  I'M A BIG FAN OF TIMERS ON PUMPS. EXCEPT AT MULTI UNIT APTS. AND CONDOS. SOME PEOPLE NEED INSTANT HOT AT 3:00AM.

                  MY BUDDIE ALWAYS ATTEMPTS TO RUN A HIGH POINT THERMAL LOOP. THE JOBS THAT HE CAN USE THIS ON WORK GREAT. NO REAL WEAR AS THE WATER CIRCULATES VERY SLOW. NO PUMPS TO REPLACE. NO WORRIES IF THE WATER IS OFF AND THE PUMP RUNS DRY.

                  I THINK THAT PLUMBERS ARE STARTING TO LEARN THAT YOU DON'T NEED A BIG PUMP TO MOVE A CIRC. SYSTEM.
                  THE LITTLE GRUNDFOS 15-18 IS ALL A SINGLE LOOP NEEDS. AS LONG AS THE WATER IS MOVING, IT'S GOING TO GET HOT.
                  SOMETIMES BIGGER IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER.
                  BUT DON'T COMPARE THAT TO GUN'S. THE DOG MIGHT WAKE UP.

                  MARK, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH ANOTHER K-50 CABLE ADAPTER? I WAS AT THE RACES LAST NIGHT. CAME HOME AND CHECKED. YOU WON. HOW MANY DOES THAT GIVE YOU? I KNOW, A MAN CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH. BUT THERE IS A LIMIT. I JUST HAVN'T FIGURED OUT WHAT THE LIMIT IS.

                  RICK.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rick,

                    Opps - I’m sorry I didn’t know you were bidding on that item. When I see something I’m interested in I set Auction Stealer to bid on it 3-seconds prior to the end of the auction. That way I don’t have to watch the auction and the price isn’t driven up by people bidding against my max bid. I think I was set to enter a high bid of $80 on that item I believe.

                    As for too many tools I’m not sure there are too many of anything. I’m a little different than you as in I sold all my regular plumbing stuff when I sold my business in 1999. This year I have started replacing a lot of those tools as I am tired of hiring contractors who show up and don’t know what they are doing.

                    While I don’t do drain cleanings or repairs (except for my own home) any longer I use the K-50 and K-60 to push sondes through areas I can’t get with a camera. Ridgid makes a nice adapter for their sonde so you can snap the sonde on the end of the cable just like a regular blade.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      MARK. I'VE HAD THEIR ADAPTOR FOR 3/4'' CABLE FOR MANY YEARS. IT WAS WHEN THEY WERE STILL IN THE R&D PHASE. I ALWAYS TRY TO USE A CAMERA FOR A LOCATION. IT GIVES ME MORE INFO THAN JUST A LOCATION.

                      BY THE WAY. HOW MUCH IS A NEW CABLE ADAPTER WITH THIS SET UP? YOU WERE GOING TO OUT BID ME ANYWAYS.
                      HOW DO YOU LIKE THE K-60? I AM INTERESTED FOR THE 7/8'' CABLE. I HAVE A NEW COMPLETE CARRIER AND CABLE WAITING FOR A MACHINE.

                      BY THE WAY. THAT K-50 I TOLD YOU ABOUT FROM EBAY LAST WEEK. THE $8.00 SHIPPING. TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. WELL HE WANTED ANOTHER $22.00 TO SHIP. SAID IT WAS A MISTAKE. WE SETTLED AT $12.00. STILL NOT BAD. NEED TO GET A CABLE AND DRUM ADAPTER. WANA SWAP?

                      SO YOU DIDN'T LIKE MY GRAND CANYON ANALOGY? THAT'S OK, I'VE NEVER BEEN TO THE GRAND CANYON.

                      ASK ME MONDAY NIGHT HOW MY 3'' WATER MAIN SHUT DOWN WENT. I'M PRESSING 2- 3'' CAPS ONTO A WATER MAIN AT A COUNTRY CLUB. THE 2 TEES I'M CAPPING ARE BOTH POINTING DOWN. BOTH THE LOW POINT OF THE SYSTEM. SHOULD DRIP FOR HOURS. NO WAY TO JET SWEAT AS THEY NEED IT CUT AS CLOSE TO THE TEE AS POSSIBLE. NICE THING IS THE PRO PRESS CAPS HAVE A 3/4'' FIP END BUILT IN. A GOOD SPOT FOR A FUTURE BLEED DOWN AND A PRESSURE GAUGE. SHUT DOWN IS AT 7:00PM. SHOULD BE HITTING GOLF BALLS BY 7:15PM.
                      IF NOT, I GOT A LOT OF EXPLAINING TO DO. PLUMBER AND THE DOG WON'T LIVE THIS DOWN.

                      WANT TO WATCH? WE COULD SWAP SOME GOODIES. DINNERS ON THEM. WEST L.A.

                      RICK.

                      [ 08-21-2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rick,

                        The adapters are around $150 a piece with a cable. They have two sizes; one for 5/16 and one for 3/8. The K-60 is versatile if you like sectional rodder which I do. It is set up to turn both 5/8 and 7/8 cable. I guess the part I really like is that it fits in a side compartment of my truck. The part I don’t like is the hose for the K-60 is awfully large if your only using a 5/8 cable.

                        Years ago there was a tool place in Los Angeles named Kaner Supply. I use to buy all of my Ridgid stuff there until they went out of business. A year or so later they had a bankruptcy auction where I bought thousands of feet of Ridgid cable. I kept some, I sold some to J M McKinney and I put some in storage.

                        When I started buying tools again I found a couple hundred feet of 5/8 and 7/8 cable new in boxes which I had stored in Utah. As I am not in a service business any longer I’ve been watching on eBay for machines. I finally gave up and paid retail for a K-60. The K-50 so far has been a little tougher to find. There is one on eBay now for $250 which I will probably buy.

                        I also have a K-500 and K-1500 up in Utah with 500’ of 1 ¼ cable. I have no use for it down here but I am planning some development in Utah where I may need it.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          MARK, SOUNDS SIMILAR. I JUST BOUGHT OUT THE CONTENTS OF THE PLUMBING DEPT. FROM A VERY LARGE HARDWARE STORE. PART OF IT WAS CABLES FROM GENERAL WIRE. I MUST HAVE 30 CABLES FROM 1/4''- 1/2''. 25'-100'.
                          IS THE K-60 A STRONG MACHINE. DO YOU EVER GO ONTO A ROOF WITH IT. MY 3/4'' 7500 STAYS PUT ON THE GROUND. IF THE ROOF VENT IS CLOSE, I'LL TAKE A CHANCE. OTHERWISE A C/O OR PULL THE TOILET. NOT TOO MANY PLUMBERS PULL THE TOILET THESE DAYS. MOST TEND TO USE OPEN CAGE MACHINES. THE WHOLE REASON I USE THE 7500 IS, IT KEEPS THE "GOOD STUFF" FROM RUINING THE GOOD STUFF.

                          SO I TAKE IT A TRADE IS A MOOT POINT?
                          PS. WAS KANER THE ONE OFF OF ALAMEDA AND 15TH. DOWNTOWN? IT'S BEEN MANY YEARS.

                          RICK.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rick,

                            Yeap that is the general area Kaner was located. I think they went under in the late 80s. I will adrees your other questions in a new topic.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Utah and Rick,

                              You guys should stay on the topic, or, start a new thead, or, e-mail each other. Tool started a thread, it should be honored.

                              I've seen forums which become private message centers for members. They become irrelavant for occasional members. Please honor the topic at hand.

                              the dog
                              the dog

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