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  • #16
    I should add too, everytime I could, after augering such a toilet I would attempt to raise the water fill level in the tank if the fill valve allowed above past the mark as much as possible. After doing so, those customers would almost invariably stop calling and having problems.

    Comment


    • #17
      "trade show demonstration ! i can just imagine the poor vendor drinking endless water to give yet another demo"

      LOL!!

      After I would install a toilet in a home, I would often turn around and tell the homeowner I need to give it a "road test", and close the door.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
        az, as i mentioned these urinals were at a public park in santa monica. not a private residence. the city was thinking ahead.
        the first real exposure to using one of these was at a public library also in santa monica approx. 2 years ago. can't say if they switched over since i haven't been back. just needed to look up a code in another trade. my gut feeling is that the mens room in a public library is not as demanding as a public park.

        rick.

        ps. the newer low flow flush fine. try the american standard champion toilet or the toto g-max line of toilets. the real issue is in the waste piping downstream. especially with older poorly graded c/i systems. even with a properly installed new system, stoppages can be an issue. prime example was a job that had a powder room toilet and lav 60' from any other fixtures. this was a constant paper stoppage until i advised to flush clean water before and after. the building was a multi million dollar 3 story condo in beverly hills. bad part is that there is no way to connect any closer to any other fixtures.
        Rick, Rick Rick........Rick, hold-on.

        You write: "the newer low flow flush fine"

        Then you write: "...even with a properly installed new systems, stoppages can be an issue"

        Get real, the 1.6gal. flush toilet is a joke. They may provide increaded work for service plumbers, but they are not the answer to public health.

        I'm with AZ. The 1.6 does not function correctly and should be banned.

        the dog

        [ 11-16-2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: plumbdog10 ]
        the dog

        Comment


        • #19
          The new Pipe Fitters Union building in Las Vegas has a great place to watch the effects of low flush water closets. The waste lines to the upstairs bathroom are run exposed in the classroom below.

          Three of the water closets are plumbed in No-Hub and one is plumbed in clear PVC. The PVC waste line drops vertically to the floor of the first floor and then runs horizontal for about twenty feet.

          When the low-flush water closet is flushed upstairs you watch the water and solids drop to the horizontal transition where they do a hydraulic jump and head down the horizontal line. At about the ten foot mark the water can no longer push the solids and leaves them behind.

          Regardless of how the water closet was adjusted the solids always stop at about the same place. Of course the apprentices have the fun job of cleaning the PVC line with a long brush after each demonstration.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #20
            Another problem I have with the 1.6 gal. closets is this: how much water do they save if you have to flush them three times per use (see Plumber Rick's recommendation above). That's also the situation on my own closets.

            By my math that's 4.5 gallons, as opposed to the old 3 gallon flushes.

            the dog
            the dog

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            • #21
              Utah, that Pipefitter's hall display does'nt prove what I'm getting at. The trouble with 1.6GPF toilets is that they can't flush anything past it's own trap!

              Comment


              • #22
                dog, no biting quite yet. the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream. especially older poorly graded rough pipe.
                the example that i gave on this high priced condo was that the people who designed the building, did'nt engineer the powder room plumbing properly.

                just as we no longer can pipe a washing machine stack of a multi level buiding into the bathroom waste without a large separation to keep possible soap suds from backing up into the toilets.

                we need to understand that a 60' run from a powder room toilet will not be able to carry waste and paper all the way into a common line. they should have joined the piping with a shower, or tub. this would have helped carry the waste so that the line would not plug so fast. the example i gave to flush the toilet prior and after was to help wash the waste all the way to the 60' common waste line. with all the service work that i do at hundreds of different buildings, there has been 2 that i gave this advice to.
                the original low flows that came out in 1990, are not of the same caliber that the toilets of 2005 are. there is no reason that a 1.6gpf toilet will plug anymore. the downstream piping is another story.

                rick.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by AZPlumber:
                  Utah, that Pipefitter's hall display does'nt prove what I'm getting at. The trouble with 1.6GPF toilets is that they can't flush anything past it's own trap!
                  I don't know about that as the seminar was there for a week and your example neve happened. However the solids were abandond just past the hydraulic jump on a daily basis.

                  Mark

                  [ 11-17-2005, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: ToUtahNow ]
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    All of these headaches to save 2 gallons of water while the homeowner dumps 30,000 gallons a month on his lawn to keep his grass 2 shades greener. And washes his entire car everytime a bird flies over it. Where is the common sense?

                    I've seen the new low flush toilets in action and while they are better than the ones five years ago they are still not worth a nickel in my book.
                    Work hard, Play hard, Sleep easy.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
                      dog, no biting quite yet. the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream. especially older poorly graded rough pipe.
                      the example that i gave on this high priced condo was that the people who designed the building, did'nt engineer the powder room plumbing properly.

                      just as we no longer can pipe a washing machine stack of a multi level buiding into the bathroom waste without a large separation to keep possible soap suds from backing up into the toilets.

                      we need to understand that a 60' run from a powder room toilet will not be able to carry waste and paper all the way into a common line. they should have joined the piping with a shower, or tub. this would have helped carry the waste so that the line would not plug so fast. the example i gave to flush the toilet prior and after was to help wash the waste all the way to the 60' common waste line. with all the service work that i do at hundreds of different buildings, there has been 2 that i gave this advice to.
                      the original low flows that came out in 1990, are not of the same caliber that the toilets of 2005 are. there is no reason that a 1.6gpf toilet will plug anymore. the downstream piping is another story.

                      rick.
                      Rick,

                      I'm not, as you call it, barking: I'm disagreeing.

                      The plumbing code of California should provide for a system that works period. Evacuation of human waste is an important pubilic health issue, which I don't think the current 1.6 gallon flush closets provide.

                      If you have to do special proceedures (such as you are suggesting) like: installing closets on the same line as bathtubs/showers, or suggesting that closets be flushed before use in "powder rooms" (which I'm not sure of the definition), it should be included in the plumbing code.

                      How this is possible, I don't know. In commercial buildings the is often no tub/shower. How do you require that homeowners flush their "powder room" closets before using them?

                      It seems unworkable from a consumer or plumbing code stand point.

                      the dog

                      [ 11-17-2005, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: plumbdog10 ]
                      the dog

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        "I don't know about that as the seminar was there for a week and your example neve happened."

                        Again, they were'nt in an atmosphere of potential slight abuse or above average use. Take my word for it, they suck.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          "the newer 1.6gpf toilets have no problem flushing without the use of a plunger. that's what i said. the issue is with the piping downstream."

                          Hogwash. 1.6GPF toilets are the biggest joke to come along in the plumbing world next to water soluable flux.

                          The tanks don't hold enough water to allow a proper flush. Period. It has nothing whatsoever to do with piping. If it did, the same water saving toilets would'nt be plugging up time and again in the same condo buildings i get work from while the older regular toilets chug along trouble-free (I have maintenance contracts with several such buildings, and I see first-hand what pieces of crap these things are).

                          If you have one of these in your home, and you have kids and frequent guests, forget the plunger Rick. Just keep a 6' closet auger next to it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            az plumber, don't know about your experiences. all i can do is speak of mine and my 800+ jobsites that i service. i only recommend the best of the the 1.6 gpf toilets. years ago 1990 the best was the pressure assist toilet. (not kohler, recalled) i personally have 2 american standard pressure assist with the old fasioned center push button dated from 1991. i have never taken a plunger or auger to these 2 toilets, nor had to service anything inside.
                            i still recommend these to commercial accounts such as doctors offices that do colono-oscopies. i used to also recommend these to my residential customers. no need anymore. i have had good luck years ago with the briggs vaccuity. not sure if they are still making them. fluidmaster made the special vac. assist tank.
                            now i use the toto g-max line and the american standard champion line of toilets of which they even make a 1 piece now.

                            not to get too graphic. i travel out of the country 3 times a year. there is not a hotel toilet that i have not plugged. fortunatly all but 1 didn't need a plunger. that 1 i called to get a plunger and fix it myself. amazing that the 3.5 gallon foreign toilets plug, but the 1.6 toilets at my house have never seen a plunger. sure maybe a second flush to clean the bowl once in awhile.

                            told you i didn't want to get too graphic.
                            my suggestion is to try the few brands that i've noted and see for yourself.

                            dog, a "powder room" is also know as a guest bathroom. a toilet and a sink only. the reason that an office toilet room differs from my example of a powder room with a 60' and no other fixtures is quite simple. with a private residential toilet it might only get used a couple of times a day or less. with 60' of piping to carry, the paper and waste stops part way down and will solidify. after this it starts the whole stoppage process and will eventually plug from that point back.
                            in an office enviroment the toilets get used much more often and not always for a #2. therefore with all that flushing the line is always wet and waste tends to keep flowing.
                            the example of the 60' run in a condo building was an extreme condition. i've had this situation in 2 separate buildings. both of which i've been able to address. 1 building i changed the horizontal 3'' line to 4'' on a 4 toilet stack. and the 60' system i get them to double flush on a #2. so far so good.

                            the biggest issue with a low flow toilet is the quality of the toilet. you can't expect a $50. toilet to flush like a $300. toilet. just like you can't expect a yugo to drive like a mercedes. i forgot we got rid of the yugo line of cars. if you put in a quality toilet, you will get good results. it works for me everytime.

                            rick.

                            [ 11-18-2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Rick,

                              I agree the newer low flush water closets have gotten much better. Still if the drain system was not meant for a low flow water closet you will have problems. The real question is, as the only repair plumber on the site, have you seen an increase or decrease in water closet stoppages over the last ten years?

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                mark, i have seen a definate decrease in toilet stoppages. in fact on the real cheap toilets that i've replaced for customers, there problems are gone. most local cities had rebate programs or free toilets. i always advised my customers to take the cash and purchase the better toilet.

                                like anything else, most of the time, it's a learning process with anything new. in this case not only a learning process, but a better toilet has been developed over the last 15 years of low flow.

                                as a matter of fact, i get more calls for plugged up sewers (roots)and kitchens than i do for toilets. people are learning how to flush, or how to plunge. if i can only teach them how to properly use a garbage disposal. that would make for a good topic.

                                rick.

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