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  • #31
    I'm saying again: If the State of California is going to require 1.6 gallon flush closets, then they should insure that they work properly.

    I now see a post by Utah that mentions whether a waste system was designed for "low flush" closets. This should not matter because there is no code change that resulted when low flush closets were introduced. A citizen of California should not be required to find out which brand of water closets he should buy that will actually function. There should be a state standard on water closets that citizens of this state can trust.

    In my opinion the 1.6 gallon flush tank closets do not function up to the plumbing standards we should expect in this state.

    Rick,

    Comparing the plumbing in foreign countries is a complicated subject. What country, what code, what enforcement?

    the dog
    the dog

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    • #32
      dog, it was comparing a toilet stoppage from a 3.5 gpf. to a 1.6gpf. nothing to do with the actual plumbing. just the toilet. in fact most of the toilets i see overseas are the same as we have here.

      rick.

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      • #33
        dog,

        I agree with you and that's part of my problem with the low flush water closets.They forced the water closets on us before we were ready and never changed any of the design criteria to handle the low flow water closets.

        The newer low flows are better because the waste is now clearing the traps. That does not mean the solids are reaching the end of the laterals on the first flush.

        Back in the 70s I use to play with the Gerbit replacement tanks and I could get them to clear the traps with very little water but I knew it wasn't making it all the way to the sewer.

        The design of the Gerbit tank is what we should be using. They would still save water and would eliminate the need for multiple flushes.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK:
          dog, it was comparing a toilet stoppage from a 3.5 gpf. to a 1.6gpf. nothing to do with the actual plumbing. just the toilet. in fact most of the toilets i see overseas are the same as we have here.

          rick.
          Rick,

          Let me clarify: You indicated that the newest 1.6 gal. closets flush better than the old standard closets. This is based on your use of foreign plumbing. That is how I read your post.


          1) Are you going to honestly tell me that the low flow closets flush better. Come-on Rick, be honest.

          2) If this is based on foreign plumbing, could it be that the waste system under the water closet is not piped correctly?

          3) I would urge a customer to hold onto their older water closet. For what, $20.00, they can replace the mechanical parts and keep a far superior fixture running for years. Or they can pay you to replace it with a 1.6 gal. flush, and yes get a rebate from the government, but they better invest in a plunger and an auger, they'll be using it quit often.

          the dog
          the dog

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          • #35
            dog, once again. with a good low flow toilet it will outflush a 3.5 gallon. the 2 toilets i noted are the top of the line toilets. infact the american standard champion advertises it will flush 28 golfballs. i've seen it done. what i havn't seen, is real life golf balls being flushed. still impressive. the pressure assist toilets i have at my house have never plugged. i can't say that about every toilet.
            i can tell you that i'm not a fan of kohler. infact the last ballcock, flushvalve assy. i needed for a 1pc. rochelle toilet cost me $227. so much for the $20 fix. would have replaced the toilet except it was a 1 pc. color toilet with a matching bidet.

            what brand and model do you have at your house? how old is this toilet? maybe it needs to be updated. infact i can guarantee you that if you install 1 of the tolets i've recommended, you outlook on these low flow will change.

            rick.

            Comment


            • #36
              WOW WHAT A THREAD MY 2 CENTS

              i have yet to have a blockage at our outhouse in the siearras. maybe we should rethink this indoor stuff!
              I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

              Comment


              • #37
                Rick,

                IMHO there is a big difference between clearing the trap and evacuating the waste our of the line. I believfe you even noted the difference in an earlier post. I'm wondering if when you say they work some feel you are claiming the later.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #38
                  mark, clearing the trap of the toilet has not been a issue with the toilets i've mentioned. still you only have 1.6 gallons to wash the waste to the city main. in most cases there is other water/ waste use in the home to assist with the flow. fixtures such as a shower, tub and especially a laundry will help to flush the line.
                  not every time the toilet is flushed it's going to be a #2. the example i gave with the condo powder room was an extreme example of poor engineering and layout. in this case a simple change of habit was all that was needed to get the line to stay clean. even if they could find a colored 1 piece 3.5 gallon toilet, they would need 3 for the building.
                  we could compare this problem with all the issues i come across when it comes to laundry rooms in a multi level (3+ stories) building. why do some buildings or units have soap suds come up in the toliet and others don't? the answer is that the person causing the soap suds is using too much soap and or additives. because some people (less than 5%)don't know how to properly wash their clothes, now we have to relocate the laundry waste lines downstream from the toilets.

                  there is a choice in quality of toilets. plumbers and homeowners need to make that choice. i've yet to come across a toilet that i've recommended that didn't flush.

                  rick.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Rick,

                    As the UPC requires sud relief for suds producing stacks 3 story and above you may have a problem with your waste stack design as well.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      " with a good low flow toilet it will outflush a 3.5 gallon."

                      Impossible, I'm not buying that. According to all laws of physics, lol, without a power flush unit there is no way they can outflush a 3.5G. And who puts power assist units on residential toilets? I mean, you can of course, but cost is prohibitive to some. Tell me when the last time it was you saw a power assist in a residential application on a service call that you did'nt put in.

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                      • #41
                        Want to add, on most residentail service calls, the customer usually will balk at purchasing an expensive toilet like the ones you are mentioning Rick. What are they, 2 or 300$ closets? It's hard to push pricey toilets on people who are cash strapped and need a toilet replaced now. I used to be able to but the standard old style 3.5G toilets for around a little over 100$ with a regular ballcock in them which could be yanked out in favor of a 10$ reliable flushmaster valve at anytime. Now look. You call this progress?

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                        • #42
                          azplumber, the power assist was the only real good flushing toilet back in 1990 when low flow came out. in the last 3 years i have not recommended them. there is no need as the new toilets will flush as good as the power flush(toto g-max and american standard champion). a power flush is basically the same flush as a sloan flush valve toilet (this is the flushing design as in commercial buildings, public restrooms and stadiums across the u.s.)the difference is that it takes a minute to recharge.
                          to answer your question, i've replaced dozens of kohler 1 pc. power assist toilets. they had a defect that kohler couldn't or wouldn't fix. in replace they would credit the homeowner with a gravity flush toilet. not a real good substitute. now that 95% of these have been replaced they are typically not doing anything about them. even the $100. credit is tuff to get. by the way, as stated earlier, i'm not a fan of kohler. therefore to answer your question how many pressure flush toilets are in residential that i didn't install. well i can tell you that my local supply house had processed over 1000 returns on the kohler alone. this is just the ones that plumbers have brought in for credit. not to mention all the others that were thrown out or taken back to other kohler distributors. then there is all the working pressure assist like in my house (american standard 2 piece) that are from 1991 and never have seen a plunger or a repair. try that with any rubber flapper toilet.
                          a pressure flush toilet cost approx. $225.00 for a 2 piece. what do you charge to auger or plunge a toilet?. the only complaint with a pressure flush is the little bit of noise. only 1 of my customers had me remove 1 because of the noise. it would wake up his wife in the middle of the night. as far as repairs on these go, i fix maybe 2-3 of them a year. gravity flush toilets with rubber flappers and ballcocks, hundreds of them a year. as far as stoppages go, more kitchen sinks and sewer roots than a toilet. 75% of the people that call for a toilet stoppage fix it themselves with a plunger. don't think i do more than 10 a year. and typically it's because of something that should not have been flushed. even a pager and a cell phone.

                          rick.

                          ps. not everyone drives a mercedes, or a high priced car. if the person you work for can't afford a $200-300 dollar toilet that last for 10+ years without ever touching it. how can they afford to have you come over to service a toilet every few years? did you know that toto makes a $4000. dollar toilet. now your talking not being able to afford a toilet. how about the jacuzzi tub with a big screen tv for $27,000. now the 200-300 hundred on a good flushing toilet doesn't sound that bad. i don't drive a mercedes, but i do have a $200. toilet. i'm sure if a customer has a choice over a $50. dollar toilet that doesn't flush and a $200. dollar one that does flush, the choice would be simple. not to mentinon all the money saved in service calls and water.

                          [ 11-19-2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: PLUMBER RICK ]

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                          • #43
                            Well gentlemen, I run service for a living, as most of you know. I use my toilet auger probably about twice a week. (My rating is too high to get toilet auger jobs that often) I would have to say that 80% of the toilets that i auger are the old 3.5 toilets. It's the older ones that are clogging up more often for me. I replace them with the champion when the customer desires it and guarantee it for a year they'll never clog it or i'll run it for free (toilet auger only). I use that crappy old general wire brand bobble head 6 footer, and it works 95% of the time. I have problems with front outlet and old american standard toilets with that auger. I'm just waiting to break it before i buy a new ridgid.

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                            • #44
                              Not to change the subject, not that we are talking much about the topic anymore anyways, but i just purchased and installed the new American Standard "Standard" Collection toilet for the house we just bought. This thing has a huge bowl, but a little tank. It's pretty tight in there, too. Just enough room for a fluimaster 400a and a douglas style flushvalve, and the fancy dancy handle that came with it. I didn't even have enough room to install the fluidmaster bowl bleacher (those things really do work by the way, and its the safest and best design). The toilet flushes great, but i have never seen such a small tank. Here's a link, what do y'all think of the tank?
                              http://www.americanstandard-us.com/P...sp?prodID=1333

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                              • #45
                                So i guess you could say that i am agreeing with everything Rick is saying [img]smile.gif[/img]

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