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  • #16
    Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

    Originally posted by Gene Bickford View Post
    I've had a fair amount of jobs in my days and one thing I've learned is it doesn't pay to train with the nice guy. I prefer the type "A" personality, The old school sour bastard or, former Military men. They all tell it like it is. They don't mess around and worry about my "feelings" and ***** foot around. Once I have gained their respect they start to open up and once they do they have more experience/knowledge to offer.
    Bingo!!!
    Now if we can get the kids off mama's you know what,and toughen 'em up a little bit things may turn a little.
    The new generation wants nothing but sweets.

    Bad diet.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

      Originally posted by Gene Bickford View Post
      I've had a fair amount of jobs in my days and one thing I've learned is it doesn't pay to train with the nice guy. I prefer the type "A" personality, The old school sour bastard or, former Military men. They all tell it like it is. They don't mess around and worry about my "feelings" and ***** foot around. Once I have gained their respect they start to open up and once they do they have more experience/knowledge to offer.
      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
      Bingo!!!
      Now if we can get the kids off mama's you know what,and toughen 'em up a little bit things may turn a little.
      The new generation wants nothing but sweets.

      Bad diet.
      That is the problem with todays youth, they're to soft.
      Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

      http://www.contractorspub.com

      A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

        Can't really blame it on the kids though, they will act as expected.
        As long as schools/parents expect all kids to act as equals they will be.
        Example: My daughter did rope climbing in gym. She climbed up and down 3 times in a row. One boy did 2 times and 2 others did once. 18 others did none. Half of the 18 didn't even get off the ground. The ones that didn't get off the ground got the exact same award as the ones that did, a pat on the back and "great effort". No winners.
        Why should a child strive to do better if the reward is the same as those that don't. When we were kids no one wanted to be "that" kid, Now most of them are "that" kid and theres no shame in it.

        Teachers/parents need to toughen up. Like my mom always says "If your kids like you, you're not doing your job"
        INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
        Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

          Gene, I cannot begin to express just how much I agree with you.
          I posted on another thread about a crew I once worked with that was mostly stoned at work...this was a perfect example.
          Most of the guys there were under 25, barring the foreman who was just over 40 and perpetually stoned on the job...he was the one who set the pace for everyone.

          I think the owner knew, but turned a blind eye because it's almost impossible to keep kids on for very long in this business.
          One kid I was stuck with for a while would wander off while I worked 100% of the time when I couldn't work right with him, I almost had to beg to not have to work with him because I was still held accountable for our collective productivity.

          I guess it's a matter of personal choice, but what you said about getting the ugly truth out up front is something I completely agree with.
          Sugarcoating, or turning a blind eye will set up a much bigger problem down the road, best to weed out anyone who won't take the job seriously right up front and let 'em walk, than set yourself up for major problems with trust, liability, or frivolous unemployment Insurance/work comp claims.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

            I really can't form a opinion on which is better seasoned vs training. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Most employers I know, think like drtyhands posted (no disrespect drty). Why hire one experienced guy at 35.00 when you can get two young ones at 12.00 each?
            Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

              Originally posted by Tyman View Post
              Why hire one experienced guy at 35.00 when you can get two young ones at 12.00 each?
              Factor the price of a completely ruined hardwood floor, burnt floor joists from an overnight fire left smoldering from soldering, a ceiling that fell down from water damage overnight into your insurance premiums...then add up the difference on that hourly rate over the course of one year along with the hidden cost of lost confidence from your customers in the longterm.
              I am not exaggerating...all the above happened within the course of my last year with that shop.
              On the bright side...they certainly were a happy crew.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                I really can't form a opinion on which is better seasoned vs training. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Most employers I know, think like drtyhands posted (no disrespect drty). Why hire one experienced guy at 35.00 when you can get two young ones at 12.00 each?
                $35.00 an hr, I can add this into each billing, the damage of my tools or the disappearance can get a little tougher. The loss of production due to a tool scene is a little harder to figure in.

                I too, have gone through my fair share of drug induced kids on the job, its scary man. The person could injure him/herself or others.

                Yes there advantages to have a young buck on jobs. But as I get older I tend to see things in a different perspective, about why I would rather hire a seasoned worker.

                I also work smarter these days, where a young buck will takes chances and it scares me, to think that they are putting their lives at stake due to they need to prove something. What, that they are stronger, more flexible, monkey like work ability.

                I was that guy also, but not no more, this a good reason why I would rather hire someone my age. I'm on roofs and ladders and scaffolding all the time, I don't need someone who can jump from one scaffold to the next at 15-25 feet up.
                Great Link for a Construction Owner/Tradesmen, and just say Garager sent you....

                http://www.contractorspub.com

                A good climbing rope will last you 3 to 5 years, a bad climbing rope will last you a life time !!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                  DB, your right in that experienced plumbers would have been less likely to have that event happen. However, let us not kid ourselves here. It is all about the dollar. As an employer, who would not want to have highly trained experienced crew? Now, who can afford that?

                  When is comes to hiring experienced, seasoned workers along with that comes some habits. Usually, they are fiercely independent. Look at the guys on this forum for example. I can't imagine some of them working for someone else. That is not a bad thing, as being a good plumber, carpenter, electrician and such require a independent, confident personality. If the employer is likes to micro manage his employees and assert total dominance, then hiring a season worker will be a bad thing.

                  However, if the employer is willing to trust them and let them do what they have been doing for years it could be a great decision to have hired them.

                  Inexperienced workers like to discuss things and debate which is better. Seasoned workers already know and it is pointless to even bring it up.

                  Inexperienced workers like to try new things and tools. Experienced have already been there and done that and just want to do what they have always done.

                  So, which is better? Depends on what kind of employer you are and how much time you want to put into training.
                  Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                    Originally posted by Tyman View Post
                    So, which is better? Depends on what kind of employer you are and how much time you want to put into training.
                    I think Tyman brings up a good point here. I'm sure we all would love to have highly qualified self reliant people working around us but that's just not reality in todays world.

                    This is part of the problem with the construction industry as a whole. Too many young inexpierienced people coming into the trade not being properly trained. Why? no one has the time and patience to train. If I have to show and explain a helper how to do a procedure then I could have done it myself 2 or 3 times over. And in the end, I probably have to redo what he screwed up anyways. There is no money in the budget for this.

                    Now, let's talk about me some....

                    I had always hoped to be at a point where I could have a decent helper to pass on what I have learned. A protege, if you will. After DOZENS of helpers I realized I don't have the patience to teach. I prefer to work alone and will probably take what I know to the grave. So I guess I'm part of the problem and not the solution.

                    The old timers I worked with passed very little knowledge onto me. Perhaps they saw me as just a punk, which I was. I didn't really start learning anything until I was thrust into a truck on my own. Sure, I flooded apartment buildings by over tightening tank bolts, burned a few families out of their homes and set off fire sprinklers in condo buildings but we all have done that, right?.....right?

                    Seasoned?..yes
                    Trained?...no

                    This is how I learned...on my own

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                      You know,when you guys talk about the seasoned tradesman the dialogue seams to project the image of someone that a buisness owner can hand a set of plans and not worry about the final product.
                      Hardly the truth with the available work force.

                      Garager/Mark...Tell me honestly...How easy would it be to get a guy to tighten up his gaps after he's already learned to work with less than our tolerances?It put's a lot of stress on a guy,feeling he needs to prod a grown man to do good work.Doesn't that have a price?

                      Again,I have gone through quite a few.Tradesmen are individuals.Just like the kids.They make mistakes too.

                      Bottom line,
                      Odds are on the fact it costs less resources per foot annually to run a daycare.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                        I know the feeling. I work for a few different contractors,But do a lot for myself.I live in a neighborhood that was built almost 100 years ago.Every house here needs a little something. I can;t find any help either, when i start to teach someone,they work a few months.Then go work somewhere else for 50 cents more money.So i just do jobs i can do alone.It took me 3 weeks to paint a house.But i told them that up front. Now the neighbors want their house painted.I just don't want to do it.To much for one person,to do.
                        Their were people who stopped looking for work,They didn't even have a brush, roller, nothing.


                        Here in Memphis i can hire good help that have a lot of tools for 15$ an hour.But they try and steal you're jobs. People call me because i do it right.

                        So i know what ya mean.
                        If you choose not to decide,you still have made a choice.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                          In our circumstance, as far as I am concerned, the issue comes down to attitude. We pay big bucks. The minimum anyone makes is $29.79 an hour. I get comments like, "...I am staying here because this is the most money I have ever made." But invariably what happens to these guys is in a few months they somehow adopt an attitude of entitlment. They think the company owes them a living. They stand around when there is work to be done and get an attitude when they have to do one of the less desirable jobs, instead of jumping in and getting it done.

                          We had a coffer dam leak that was giving us fits. I was working with a newer guy - truck driver turned laborer - in mud and water up to our waist trying to find where the coffer dam was leaking. The guy says, "This is a no win situation." I screamed at him, as I am prone to do, that, "WE HAVE TO WIN. We have a bridge to build. We have to stop this water leaking. The company has a contract. We have to work and do what has to be done so the company can make money. If the company doesn't make money we don't have a job." Instead of trying to help solve the problem he was willing to give up. If new guys don't have a problem solving attitude they are doomed in construction. If they are in construction for the money they are going to hate the job very soon. No money in the world can make someone enjoy repairing a water main break when the temperature is below zero, water is flooding out of a pipe and the only way to find the break is to reach down into elbow deep water and feel for the break. New guys better have a 'can do, we will win' attitude or you aren't going to make it in this business.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                            Thank you! Amen to that!!! If you're going to go on a jobsite and b!tch about the crummy jobs (and there are lots of them as we all know), then you might as well stay home, fire up the Nintendo and suck your thumb. I don't want a bunch of crybabies around who are afraid to get a little dirty or work in adverse conditions. He!!, half the time we're out there, we're working in adverse or less than ideal conditions.
                            Jim Don

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                              Originally posted by Tom W View Post
                              In our circumstance, as far as I am concerned, the issue comes down to attitude. We pay big bucks. The minimum anyone makes is $29.79 an hour. I get comments like, "...I am staying here because this is the most money I have ever made." But invariably what happens to these guys is in a few months they somehow adopt an attitude of entitlment. They think the company owes them a living. They stand around when there is work to be done and get an attitude when they have to do one of the less desirable jobs, instead of jumping in and getting it done.

                              We had a coffer dam leak that was giving us fits. I was working with a newer guy - truck driver turned laborer - in mud and water up to our waist trying to find where the coffer dam was leaking. The guy says, "This is a no win situation." I screamed at him, as I am prone to do, that, "WE HAVE TO WIN. We have a bridge to build. We have to stop this water leaking. The company has a contract. We have to work and do what has to be done so the company can make money. If the company doesn't make money we don't have a job." Instead of trying to help solve the problem he was willing to give up. If new guys don't have a problem solving attitude they are doomed in construction. If they are in construction for the money they are going to hate the job very soon. No money in the world can make someone enjoy repairing a water main break when the temperature is below zero, water is flooding out of a pipe and the only way to find the break is to reach down into elbow deep water and feel for the break. New guys better have a 'can do, we will win' attitude or you aren't going to make it in this business.
                              Truck driver turned laborer is part of the problem. He'll be back in the truck before long. Once they sit in that seat they are ruined.
                              I miss those days at times and your right no amount of money can make you enjoy it, It's just got to be in your blood. You ever notice a good Pipe layer is never quite right in the head?
                              Nobody makes enough money. The more money you make, the more wants you have. When I'm poor, I want Corona and smokes. When I'm rich, I want Corona, smokes and, a boat.
                              INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
                              Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                                Gene,

                                You are right. The last time I saw the guy was last year. We had 1200 feet of 14" pipe to drill and the wind chill was minus 23 F. (We couldn't work the next day because the wind chill was supposed to be minus 25 F. WHAT? It is OK for us to work at minus 23 but not minus 25!? What is the difference?) A truck arrived with stone and this bird was driving and bitchin' about how he had to work during the winter.

                                I never really thought about pipe layers as a group but you are right. Most of them are a little wacked. But, who would go into a hole, even with a manhole box and trench boxes setup and perfectly safe, that was 25 feet deep if they weren't a little off kilter in the head department. I did it once to help a pipelayer and if you think it is a long way looking down into the hole, it looks a lot farther when you are in the bottom looking up. I helped and then I got out of there as fast as I could.

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