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  • #31
    Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

    Originally posted by Tom W View Post
    Gene,

    You are right. The last time I saw the guy was last year. We had 1200 feet of 14" pipe to drill and the wind chill was minus 23 F. (We couldn't work the next day because the wind chill was supposed to be minus 25 F. WHAT? It is OK for us to work at minus 23 but not minus 25!? What is the difference?) A truck arrived with stone and this bird was driving and bitchin' about how he had to work during the winter.

    I never really thought about pipe layers as a group but you are right. Most of them are a little wacked. But, who would go into a hole, even with a manhole box and trench boxes setup and perfectly safe, that was 25 feet deep if they weren't a little off kilter in the head department. I did it once to help a pipelayer and if you think it is a long way looking down into the hole, it looks a lot farther when you are in the bottom looking up. I helped and then I got out of there as fast as I could.
    I worked one once 20'+ deep only two Pipe layers in the Co. Me and Snell. We had two 10' boxes stacked (not very safe) every time stone/fill truck drove by we had to run to a safety box to avoid all the falling rock.
    Didn't help, the night before we started the job I had a dream that snell got buried in the trench. "Old Timer" (old pipe layer from way back in this area) stopped by and said when he layed the original pipe they didn't have trench boxes and they didn't cart off the spoils just piled em next to the trench.
    INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
    Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

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    • #32
      Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

      He/She will have drivers license.

      Doing a trade is just like any other job...some like it, some dont. I sure dont jump on the kids for not wanting to choose plumbing as a trade. Its not for everybody. Heck, you could never get me to work behind a computer for 8 hours, or a lathe, or under a hood, an EMT, trucker etc. I insulted my dentist once, mainly because he said he would never be a plumber. I told him his job was nastier.

      We need to train the young kids. Lets be realistic, 1 in 10 might stay in the trades. I noticed the Unions trying to recruit military, for a good reason too.

      I will admit, I have never had all of the inconvienance that some of you talk about i.e. stolen tools, shoddy work, no shows etc. So I cannot relate 100%. Just my overall opinion.

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      • #33
        Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

        I feel for you. I am up in Winnipeg Manitoba and we are approaching a construction crisis. There are very few up and coming young tradesmen. It seems that it is no longer cool to be in construction. I guess everyone wants to sit at a computer for a living. Most of our good tradesmen are 50 plus years old. That in it self is not a problem. The problem is what happens when these guys retire. I agree with Garager, the young folk don't seem to have the drive or the work ethic that we had when we started. Most of the young people today in construction are there because the money is good, but when they find out that you actually have to work for a living they are gone. Hiring someone that has been at it for a decade or more usually guarantees that they are serious about their chosen occupation.
        I have had a lot of luck when I hire farm boys. I have not had a bad one yet, it seem they have a great work ethic to start and then it is just a matter of showing them the ropes.
        When I do hire anyone I will hire for attitude vs experience every time. I can train for the job but it is pretty tough to change someones outlook on life.
        Good luck Garager, I don't see it getting any better any time soon.

        Remember: If you think you can't, You won't. Attitude is everything

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

          Why would a young person want to work in the plumbing trade? Nasty fecal material, foul smelling waste, digging with a shovel, in-climate weather, seasonal work sometimes, poor benefits, back breaking work. Seriously, most plumbers I know are a little different.

          The other option is go to school, learn the computer, get good benefits, steady work, warm office, nice chair and leave everyday at five with no on-call duty. Oh, and have lunch everyday and better pay.

          I love plumbing but I don't think the guys that run a computer are any less of a person. Heck, they are probably smarter.

          I hear the work ethic complaint. I don't buy into it either. Technology and ways have changed. Sometimes working smarter is construed as being lazy.
          Anyone can tear a man down, few can build one up.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

            I like providing a service most people cannot do. Sure, "it aint rocket science" has been said enough. I would like to see some company "farm" my skills out to India.

            40 years ago, there were no I.T. jobs. So sure, the kids did the trades. Now they are grown up, see their parents beat up, and go into another line of work. When I took my test for employment at our Local, 250 guys showed up for 40 positions. Of the 40, 36 completed Journeyman in 5 years. 95% were kids, the others (like myself) were in our 30's and 40's. They are out there.

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            • #36
              Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

              I'm among the first generation to start work in the "computer age", and have discovered that there is no lack of ambition in our (or any) generation, but there is a sense of entitlement. This is not necessarily a bad thing; my peers and the younger kids that work for me feel as though they have the right to enjoy what they do for a living. America has so much prosperity and opportunity that the obligation to punch a factory clock for forty years to put food on the table is no longer a fact of life. The trades are experiencing a drought because there are so many more options these days, not because anyone's afraid of hard work. I have one friend that develops websites for 9 hours a day, then comes home and writes computer code for 4 or 5 hours at night for fun. He's scrawny and pale, but not lazy.

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              • #37
                Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                There are a couple things I wonder about when attempting to assess if a potential new employee is worth training.* During a preemployment* interview I would attempt to investigate areas of interest outside the job that the potential new hire may have.* In construction if he has outside interests that include physical activity e.g. hiking, hunting etc. versus playing chess I would weigh those factors heavily.* If he builds or helps build things on-the-side, like helping someone put on roof, or if he has access to a shop where he has built things that would also weigh heavily.* If you need to hire a vehicle mechanic* and one of the persons* restores cars or is involved in racing in his spare time that is the one I would hire.* He may not have the exact skills you want but I think it will be a good bet he wil become a good employee.* The trouble I have with my theory is I am not sure it works in the opposite direction.* If an employer seeks an IT person and the prospective employee likes to build things* is that an indication that he will not be a good IT person.* No clue!* If anyone works in an organization that has a Human Resource person maybe the HR person would be willing to give some tips about what to look for in potential new hires and those of us who work in organizations that have only a few employees can benefit.This post peaked an interest in me and toward that end I e-mailed* one of my former Industrial Organizational Psychology professors.* I asked about a couple things one, not related, about name calling as a sign of acceptance by the group on construction jobs.The other question I asked concerned motivation to enter the trades and job satisfaction, when the question of pay was eliminated.* Because research was a big component of my graduate school curriculum, and still an area of interest, even though it was a long time ago, I can probably work through life satisfaction studies.* In the dark recesses of my mind I recall something about job satisfaction paramaters but can't bring whatever knowledge I have or was supposed to have to the fore.

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                • #38
                  Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                  If anyone knows why those stupid astericks keep appearing in my posts and can tell me why I would certainly appreciate it. It is annoying. They are not put there intentionally.

                  Tom

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                    Beats me. You may want to check to make sure your key board is plugged in all the way.
                    Mine comes lose now and then and will do some funny things.
                    INSIGHT PIPE is now Maine Drain Serving most of ME with no charge for travel! 207-431-6232 is nolonger a working # our NEW # is 207-355-1476
                    Sewer main snaking (roto rooting). Sink clogs. Sewer backup. Pipe inspection/locating. No Dig trenchless repair. Root clog removal.We are NOT to replace your local Plumber, as we do not do plumbing. WE ARE YOUR DRAIN CLEANING EXPERTS!!! www.sewermaine.com waterville winslow bangor augusta skowhegan fairfield pittsfield oakland

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                      Not to be a negative factor here, but todays generation does not deal very well with the 20-30 year veteran out in the field. Most young people will work construction/trades as a temporary job and move on. The ones that see a limited future might stay and make a go of it. I'm not knocking construction, and I am a estimator for a large Const. company here in Virginia Beach.

                      A young guy goes into the field these days and see's sarcastic supervisors, pot head co-workers, butt wipe superintendents, and a general " I could give a ****" attitude all around. Generation X does not handle this enviroment very well.

                      Most veterans hate working with the newbie apprentice because they feel like they are baby sitting, or they spend all day long telling the newbie how " I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS 30 YRS"....... so shut up!

                      The biggest problem construction has is not Mexicans, tight schedules, Training, or even the physical work. Its poor leadership and crappy attitudes of the people who have been around.
                      Last edited by Shipwreck; 04-11-2008, 05:17 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Seasoned vs Training Workers

                        Shipwreck,

                        I am sure most of us have seen examples of all the things you have said and would concur that some of your contentions are valid. It seems to me, however, from reading these posts over the years, that most of us work in or own small organizations. There is a huge disconnect between large organizational structure management systems and small ones. If, in your organization, you see some of the things you posted about, and wish to be a change agent and enhance your employees work satisfaction, there is a very easy to understand management theory, which I like, called 'Fiedlers, Least Preferred Coworker.' A google search will turn up a number of hits. Implementation of Fiedlers theory in small business is a little more difficult to implement because there is not the flexibility to move employees from one crew to another. Difficult but not impossible.

                        On the note of flexibility of allocation of human resources the biggest complaint from employees I have found is that companies utilize the flexibility more than necessary. Teams are developed and work well only to have the company pull one of the guys to work on another team. Companies that can would be far better off to have a floater. A generalist, if you will, who can do a number of things and move him between teams instead of reassigning a team member.

                        On the issue of foremen/supervisors, those are some of the worst jobs on the planet. In general foremen/supervisors have the technical abilities to perform the work. They can shoot grades, pour foundations, lay out roads etc. The problem foremen encounter is personality management. From personal experience I can tell you that, at best, it is a frustrating experience. There is a lot of 'babysitting' required in order to bring the project to a successful, profitable conclusion. In our area the foremen generally are paid $1.00 -$2.00 more per hour than the employees they supervise. For that much more little money I am surprised anyone would subject themselves to the frustrations.

                        Tom

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