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  • Framing

    I presently have a 2-stall detached garage which measures approx 20 x 20 (give or take a couple of feet either way). Somewhere in its past a previous owner built an 8 ft extension on the right side of it, with a long slant roof. Not enough space in that room for much of anything other than storage and puttering; and, they didn't bolt the walls to the concrete slab so the long 20-ft wall has buldged out in the middle is is off the slab.

    So, I'm planning on tearing this off, and having an 8-ft section with footer added to the side, and another 8-ft floor section across the entire front, so I'll have a 16 x 28 ft area on which to build a new shop. Part of that plan is to add a second floor too. I'm contracting out the concrete work, including the sill.

    At this point in time, I'm only tossing around ideas in my head and putting the 'plan' together by working out details in Corel Draw and Sketchup.

    First question is doing the wall framing with 2 x 6's as opposed to 2 x 4's. I think it makes for a stronger frame, and allows for better insulation. Does anyone have any comments on this?

    The second question, and perhaps most important at this point, is does anyone have any concerns with doing this as a mostly solo project? As I said, I'm contracting the foundation and floor as I have no experience with concrete other than helping out the occaisional friend in need.

    I'm very well read, and know the particulars of framing fairly well, including stuctural concerns. When I was in highschool in 1962 our shop project was building a small house. Since then I've helped frame a few garages and I built my 18 x 25 ft deck on my own with absolutely no help. That was in the late 80's though. I'll be 70 in July, but I'm fairly trim and still have all my faculties; AND, this is a project that I really would like to tackle on my own.

    I do have all the necessary equipment, except a framing nailer and perhaps some tools not yet realized. I see nothing yet, that I feel would be trouble handling physically, and though I do see a couple of challenges, I'm pretty innovative about meeting such challenges.

    Again, any ideas or suggestions (other than "You're Cazy" ) would be appreciated. I do see some points where I will need an assistant or two (like the roof framing), but I've got that answered too. So, is this too much of a project for one guy?

    CWS
    Last edited by CWSmith; 02-11-2014, 05:02 PM. Reason: Final shop size would be 16 x 28, not 16 x 20

  • #2
    Re: Framing

    Need pictures of garage including roof framing. Member sizes, their spacing O.C. ect. Then We can help
    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Framing

      CW-- To answer your questions:
      1. If you have extra money to toss around, use 2x6. As far as strength, most of the houses that are in this country have been framed with 2x4. (until fairly recently) Insuation wise, your heat loss in any building is not in the wall, but rather at the doors and windows and the ceiling. ( ask any one who does heat loss calculations)
      2. No, I don't think that is too big a project for one guy. There will be a few instances where a second person would be nice, but a little creative actions can overcome that.
      Jim
      P.S. If you get stymied, you can always ask an Orange Apron!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Framing

        Thanks Pipestone!

        Tool,

        The house was built in 1887 and I believe the garage was probably built somewhere in the 20's or 30's. Studs are solid, old stuff that actually did measure out at 2 x 4 inches. However, the house does have some structural problems that I will address once I get my shop out of the basement. (Like no lateral supportg between floor joists and walls that are not properly supported vertically. The old garage studs actually are spaced at 20", not 16" as is the policy today; and at the side that will shared with the new additon will be rebuilt. I do have a new roof over half of that old structure and my plan is to rip off a good 1/4 section (what would amount to half of the side where the shop will go). I have a SketchUp illustration of the extension, which I'll try to post tomorrow, along with a photo of the existing garage.

        I will be taking off the existing addition (8 ft add on) which I must do anyway in order to have the new concrete layed. The new structure, the way I'm thinking of it now, will be exterior walls framed with 2 x 6 at 16" OC. The floor joists will be either 12" solid structural-graded stock or engineered joists, but I'm leaning toward 'solid' as that is what I am most familiar with. The joists will be 16" OC. At the moment, I have sized the roof elements, but I suspect they'll be 2 x 10's, 20" OC.

        While I see that 2 x 6 stock can be 20" OC, I see no particular advantage as the quantity would only be cut by a few studs.

        I'm not so much concerned over heat loss at the walls, as I do realize that most heat loss in UP. But I do have noise concerns and believe that the 2 x 6 cost is negligible. My cost saving is all in the labor that I'm hoping to avoid by doing this myself.... AND most important, I just want to DO IT! While money is always some concern, I figure at this point in life that certain challenges are just necessary to living good.

        I'll be working up a full set of plans, as I need to show the local building code folks what I plan to do, and of course they'll be looking over my shoulder with a critical eye at various stages. While I'm working out the materials list with Corel Draw, I'll be making a full build detail in Sketchup, which will show me any challenges and concerns.

        I may well contract out the final roofing of this structure as well as the heating and plumbing (if that proves affordable. But every thing else, like drywall, wiring, windows, etc. I think I am capable of doing.

        The other part of the project is that it would be a helluva good project to illustrate and photograph as it progresses. I'd especially like to time-lapse the photography, as that would be fun.

        Thanks,

        CWS
        Last edited by CWSmith; 02-11-2014, 05:30 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Framing

          Might want to build the long wall in two sections to make it easer to lift up off the slab, add the top plate after the walls are up, my guess is one will have to use treated lumber on the bottom plate, (use the correct nails in the treated lumber),

          may want to leave one of the short end walls off so one can use a pickup as a motorized scaffold build a tempory work platform on it,

          make getting shingles and ply wood up on the roof and make it easer putting up the rafters,

          as far as 2x6 x 2x4 yes a little more insulation, and some stronger, but 2x4 walls strong enough IMO, and unless one is going to keep it heated 24/7, I would question if it would be noticeable or pay for its self, but the cost would be minimal for some thing that small, I would do what you think you would like best, would narrow the room a little,

          not sure what your plans are for the rafters, but most heat is lost up, IF I was going to add insulation I would want it there first,

          Enjoy and keep us updated on the progress,
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Framing

            Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
            CW-- To answer your questions:
            1. If you have extra money to toss around, use 2x6. As far as strength, most of the houses that are in this country have been framed with 2x4. (until fairly recently) Insuation wise, your heat loss in any building is not in the wall, but rather at the doors and windows and the ceiling. ( ask any one who does heat loss calculations)
            2. No, I don't think that is too big a project for one guy. There will be a few instances where a second person would be nice, but a little creative actions can overcome that.
            Jim
            P.S. If you get stymied, you can always ask an Orange Apron!
            -------------
            1. The added R value of a 2x6 wall can help make up for losses in glazing and doors,
            so it might be worht doing if you plan to heat this space all winter long considering
            where you are.

            2. You can do it, and we (the Forum) can help. Maybe only vicariously, but sounds like
            that's all you will need except for placing some rafters or raising a wall.

            3. You don't NEED a framing nailer, but it will sure make it go faster and easier.

            4. You can gain a little head room and save some money by running a couple courses
            of block and set your walls on top of them. Three block will get you about 24", then with
            standard stud lengths you;ve got a 10 foot wall.

            That high ceiling will let you hang lights, run duct work for dust collection, and do other
            things overhead without encroaching on your head room. It will cost a little more to heat
            but it will also be cooler in the summer as the heat has somewhere to go (up) from where
            you can exhaust it with a fan, that is if you don't put AC in. I would suggest a 1.5 or 2 ton
            mini-split heat pump as the easiest heat/ac system to install.

            No duct work and takes up minimal wall space. We have a 16x16 3 season sun room with
            a 1.5 ton Sanyo mini-split and today I could go out there when it is 28°F adn fire it up and
            in about 20 minutes it will be over 50 out there. Give it another 20 minutes and it will be
            65 and the heat pump will be cycling on and off easily maintaining temperature. And that
            room is 100% insulated glass on the walls with 6" thick foam filled aluminum clad ceiling
            panels and at present no insulation under the floor, just an open crawl space. Once we
            close in under the floor and insulate it should be even better.
            ---------------
            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
            ---------------
            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
            ---------
            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
            ---------
            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Framing

              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post

              While I see that 2 x 6 stock can be 20" OC, I see no particular advantage as the quantity would only be cut by a few studs.
              normally 24" or 16" OC, it divides in to 48" or the width/length of sheet goods,

              my garage is 2x4 24" OC, and it has been there since 1920' and was moved over half a mile, from where it was original built,

              but if your going to build ( I like) the 16" on center, the walls and covering are so much nicer and
              ridged and less wave in them. (may be different if your covering with 1x boards but with dry wall or even wafer board, 24 can be less than Ideal, IMO, I do not know about code, but if dry walling if you go 24" OC 5/8" board, over the 1/2" dry wall,
              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
              attributed to Samuel Johnson
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Framing

                Thanks everyone,

                Great input and much of it has already gone through this head of mine (like keeping one end open during the build, so I can have new stock lifted to the second floor).

                My mason contractor will have to advise me on the depth of the floor (I'm leaning toward 6" of concrete) and of course the foundation walls. I understand that a slab is all that is necessary for a single floor, but that a 2nd floor will require a proper footer. Also, there is a code for how high above groundlevel that footer must be. (We do have termites even up here in NY, thought somewhat rare). I am also planning on having the mason contractor installing the mud sill or whatever the proper term is; and Yes, it will be treated.

                My plan is for full insulation so it can be heated or cooled throughout the year. I've also given a lot of thought to this over the last few years and want a second floor to it. A place that I'm referring to as a "guest" apartment. It will have a small 'kitchenette', bathroom, bedroom, and living space and will be basically L-shaped, as the bath and kitchenette will be over a 1/4 section of the existing garage.

                While the structure will be planned for execution this summer (pending the sale of my Painted Post house), the plumbing may not take place until 2015, and then only if I can get the City to approve of that. But my thinking is that it would be a nice place for out of town guests who still want some privacy and of course we get to keep our own. I've never taken to having house guests, as it always leads to some discomfort... either we are too messy or they are. The other part of it is, that we've had a couple of catastrophies in the last couple of years with friends or acquintances and it would be nice to offer them a temporary place to stay. Not to mention that if we ever lost power here, a much smaller, well insulated living area would be much easier to deal with on and emergency basis.

                Thanks for everything so far,

                CWS

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Framing

                  What's the live and dead loads ? Spanish Tile or Comp. shingles, on the roof ? Storing pig Iron up in the loft , or Gramp's Rocker ? This is where You begin !
                  I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Framing

                    I would hire a carpenter who's looking for work and work with him. pay him hourly and bring him in when you need the help. you can do all the grunt work that you don't need him for. but at 70, it's nuts to think you can do it all yourself. help is cheaper than your back and the hospital bills.


                    now if you want to host a roundup, i'm sure we can all pitch in and knock it off in a weekend. including indoor plumbing.


                    rick.
                    phoebe it is

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Framing

                      Go for it.
                      The only thing I would do different is use 2 X 4 for the stud framing.
                      I feel that any insulating benefits of 2 X 6 would be negligible.
                      Plus you will need wider stock for inside window and door casings, yes?
                      Not to mention how tiring it is to handle 2 x 6 all day.
                      As for the age thing, only you can make that call.
                      I would think that a man of your experience has learned how to pace himself.
                      Last edited by Big Jim; 02-12-2014, 08:18 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Framing

                        Thanks everyone,

                        I'm very happy with the kind responses and great suggestions that you have all given me. It is very much appreciated.

                        Regarding 'live loads', I don't plan on using this second floor for storage of anything unusual. Typically it will be an apartment and maybe someday on widow might want to rent it out to a college student or something of that nature. I've got several "Framing" books and other structural references, and I do have some experience in this kind of thing from working with engineers over the last half century.

                        Frabricating a wall is one thing (nailing everything together flat), but raising it into position is another, especially if I'd like to do as much 'solo' as possible. to that end, I can't see building section larger than four foot wide. Last weekend I was toying with that construction on paper and thought a mobile bench/jig would be just the thing. Design it so I could quickly place the studs, sill, headers, etc. and nail them together; then move the section into position and hinge it over vertically where it would be braced and fastened to the sill plate. Assemble the next section and do the same, fastening the sections together as I proceed. The sheathing would then be done every two or three sections as the walls progress.

                        I pretty inventive, and over the years have always come up with some form of jig or fixture to overcome any physical challenges. However, I do have a couple of guys who are available for hire. Problem of course is the scheduling. But we shall see!

                        I'll try to get some photos and my basic concept sketch (no detail yet) posted.

                        Thanks,

                        CWS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Framing

                          CW if you think you can handle it physically then go for it, but I think you are going to find out you are going to need an
                          extra body to get some things done & remember to pace yourself.


                          Some suggestions:
                          1) get the book Working Alone by John Carroll


                          2) how old are your books, because the design values for lumber changed in 2013


                          3) If you are going to have some living space then you are going to need 2 x 6 walls to meet the new energy codes.


                          4) don't buy a framing nailer for a one time job. Use hand nails or use structural screws with a 18-volt impact

                          You can get them from McFeeley's, but check with the inspector to make sure they will allow the screws.


                          5) don't put anchor bolts in to attach the walls. Use Kwik bolts, because they are easier to install after the walls are up.


                          6) here are some wall jacks for lifting the walls by yourself. Wall Jacks 16' 2000 lbs Capacity Price per Pair #48581


                          But it is easier just to get a couple of guys & lift the walls up.


                          7) if you need some help look at getting help from a temp. agency


                          8) go over in detail what you plan on doing with the inspector before you build. You don't do this all the time & you will be surprise at some of the things they want you to do.


                          9) Get your plans done & a permit soon, because if you want to start when the ground thaws out you will need your concrete guy lined up now.

                          Because as soon as it warms up to 40 deg. the concrete guys are going to be busy. Most concrete guys have been sitting around waiting over a month for warmer weather, so they can work.


                          My concrete crew has been pouring everyday, but all the concrete guys I know have been lucky to get one day in a week. We are even going to pour tomorrow & we are suppose to get a foot of snow.

                          You have to know to save the inside work for bad days.


                          Good Luck & keep us posted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Framing

                            Maybe it's a bad omen... I just found out last night that my mason contractor passed away last week. Great guy who learned the business from his father and just knew everything. We were supposed to get together at the end of the month. He did some basement wall repair for us a year ago and we discussed other projects for this year and next.

                            So, I guess I better start calling around.

                            Thanks for you knowledgeable suggestions,

                            CWS

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Framing

                              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                              I would hire a carpenter who's looking for work and work with him. pay him hourly and bring him in when you need the help. you can do all the grunt work that you don't need him for. but at 70, it's nuts to think you can do it all yourself. help is cheaper than your back and the hospital bills.


                              now if you want to host a roundup, i'm sure we can all pitch in and knock it off in a weekend. including indoor plumbing.


                              rick.
                              WHO Young Fella ! I'm 71 and work 6 days a week!
                              I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                              Comment

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