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  • #16
    Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

    BHD brings up good points - reasons to reconnect the motor of the KJ-1750 to run on 220-240 Volts. I'm trying to find out if the Yamaha YG5200D generator has a switch so you can connect both of the windings in parallel for full output at 120 Volts. Some generators have such switches and others will have special windings for dealing with a single heavy 120 Volt load. I'm going to try calling one of the few good Yamaha power equipment dealers tomorrow when they are open. They can take a look and tell me if it has such a switch. Actually you should be able to spot it. It will say 120 Volts (if one way) and 120/240 Volts if thrown he other way.

    As to the engine really grunting, that would be pretty normal for a few seconds as the motor starts, but if the pressure washer pump isn't under heavy back pressure that should only last a few seconds and then end. The YG5200D should be more than enough generator to start and run it and especially if reconnected for 240 Volts.

    Please try this test if you can and make notes.
    1. With generator running a few minutes to warm up, measure Voltage at all outlets and note that one will have around 240 Volts so set the meter on a 250 or 300 Volts AC range. Be careful not to zap yourself.

    2. If you have a portable electric heater plug it in and measure Voltages again. Did the engine slow down much? Is it grunting hard?

    3. If you have a second portable electric heater, plug it in too and again take Voltage measurements and note how the engine acts.

    This may be an engine issue with the speed setting and/or too much speed droop (engine slows under load). If the engine sounds like it's having a hard time with 2 heaters (normal for a small portable heater is 1200 - 1500 Watts when set to high) then you have engine related troubles. If there is much Voltage change when only one heater is being powered and the engine doesn't grunt or slow, then it would be either diode or regulator problems. In any case this would be good reason to take the generator to a Yamaha dealer that is setup for generator service. I'm in MD and the only place I can think of that's any good is in Laurel, MD on US1. I'm pretty sure there would be one closer to you.

    Special note: If you need to, use test lights as the Volt Meter. They aren't too good, but you can see any big changes.

    Bruce, I'm sure you already know and have thought of this, but just in case, be sure the auto idle control is off. The engine-generator must be running at full speed before you connect any heavy loads. The auto idle will only work for when you are using lighter loads. If the engine is not at full running speed and a heavy load is connected then engine will grunt down and about stall out. Small air cooled engines have to be up to speed or the power output falls off fast.


    BHD - FYI
    This is a 2 pole brushless model. Thankfully it's not the newer wild inverter type. 3600 RPM under rated continuous (4000 Watts approx - not name plate) load and you would be correct that around 62-64 Hertz for no load. The electric clock with second hand and say a good watch or another wall clock (not powered from generator) would make a good way to test frequency output of the generator.

    I like your idea of "The Poor Man's Frequency Meter" and have used it. I normally do a longer than one minute test.


    Woussko has howled too much today. I need to get off of here and give this all a break.
    Last edited by Woussko; 09-03-2007, 08:47 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

      Woussko,

      I am going to have to wait for another weekend that I put the phone on answering before I can get into all of that testing, but I am really interested in all of your suggestions. You really put a lot of time and thought into helping me out and I appreciate it. I might even just take the generator to an authorized Yamaha small engine repair shop, but I am leary of one of their techs having even half of the foresight or knowledge you have. You know what I mean -- I'm afraid I'll go to pick it up and they'll tell me all it needed was an oil-change and a spark plug.

      Regarding your PM and thoughts on a peak-measuring amp meter, my amprobe did hold the peak reading when I first started testing the generator and it read 68amps, 65amps, 70amps and other outrageous numbers in that range. I turned off the peak hold because I thought these numbers were just anomolies, and that my amprobe was just giving freaky numbers -- I thought that if the amps were, indeed, this high, the breaker would have tripped right away, which it didn't.

      Below is a link to the Yamaha page describing my generator. Maybe there is some information here that can tell you about the full voltage thing.

      http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/...57/0/home.aspx

      Thanks,

      Bruce

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

        Bruce

        Let's hang in there on this. I need to contact the service department of a good (not local) Yamaha generator dealer that does know the machines well. I have a feeling you're going to be in for some work and there are several options. The best one may be to not worry about your generator as my bet is that it is fine. I think the motor on the pressure washer - jetter pump will have to be changed over for 240 Volts. This is if it can be done. If not, then I see changing the motor over to a small engine of about 5-7 HP. It might be better to sell it and get a similar pressure washer with engine on it. A 2 HP induction motor as is on the KJ-1750 will require loads of starting current for a few seconds and I think you're sacking your generator. At 240 Volts you'll be able to get everything that generator can put out whereby at 120 you're only able to obtain part of the full output. Before doing anything let me research this some more. I have ideas but need to get more info at my end first.

        For now please give up on trying to power the KJ-1750 from the generator. You don't need to damage it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

          the starting amps you listed are or seem a little high but not necessarily out of the picture, (especially with some speed drop(frequency) and voltage drop).

          In motor starting it is normally 3 to 5 times the running load of the name plate, depending on the load and the efficiency of the starting windings and the set up it is.

          http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/startingload.html

          http://www.gillettegenerators.com/sizing/sizing03.html

          and when your on 110 voltage you only in a sense using half of the generator,
          at 220 your using both sets of windings of the unit,
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

            Here we go

            I did some research and downloading of manuals and read through them. The Ridgid KJ-1750 is made for 120 Volt use and has safety devices you do not want to remove or change which would not allow reconnection for 240 Volts unless they were removed. Please leave it as it came from the factory and if any changes have been made be sure everything is put back. This is for safety reasons.

            When it comes to the Yamaha YG5200D Engine-Generator, I found that it has a wild winding design where you can pull more than 1/2 power on one side. This would be from L1 to N, but if you do so then you must not connect any loads from L2 to N or use it with any 240 Volt loads. You must use only the 30 Amp. 125 Volt twist lock (NEMA L5-30) receptacle and if there are 2 it's the one closer to the 120 Volt duplex outlet. You'll need to get a L5-30 plug and a non twist lock (NEMA 5-20) 20 Amp 125 Volt female connector and a few feet of 12-3 type SJTW or SJEOOW cable. Actually just be sure it has SJ and W. If it has other leters besides so much the better. You'll want an electrician type to make up the adaptor cord for you. It must be correct or it's not safe to use.

            My gut feeling is this is a hard starting motor and that the problem is you need a beast of a generator (especially being a 120 Volt motor) in order to start and run it. Maybe not, but this all may be good reason to sell your KJ-1750 and get a "Plumber Rick" recommended model that's engine powered. I would keep the generator as it should come in very handy for other uses.

            One other thing you might try is to replace the starting capacitor on the motor with a new one with the same specs. Places like Grainger have a good stock and so would electric motor repair shops. They don't cost much and if your's is in so-so condition it may make a huge difference. They are easy to replace too.

            I think you may want to have a good electrician help you and take voltage and current measurements. In addition try the electric clock trick that BHD posted but give it say 5 minutes and note how much it gained or lost. In a 5 minute no load test the electric clock should say about 5 min 15 sec to 5 min 20 sec. Under a pretty good load it should be closer to 5 minutes right on. Under heavy load it would loose around 10 seconds per 5 minutes. The speed droop of a small gasoline engine will be much greater than on a multi cylinder larger engine. While the idea is to aim at about 5% in reality that is hard to hold to with a small engine.
            Last edited by Woussko; 09-05-2007, 01:50 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

              Bruce

              If you feel like it just howl. It helps one feel better in times like this. ARRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo

              I wish I was near you and could run some tests both on the motor load when starting and running and also on your generator. This is all too much to ask you to do on your own and I agree that the dealer may not have the right person and/or equipment to properly check the generator. A place that services large stationary or trailor generators normally doesn't get into doing portables but it might pay to ask if they can test it some.

              Please have lots of heart for your generator. Don't force it and grunt it. You can do costly damage. If it can't start something within a few seconds disconnect it fast.
              Last edited by Woussko; 09-04-2007, 11:35 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

                After doing more research into both the KJ-1750 and the Yamaha YG5200D generator here's what is going on. The KJ-1750 will require far more current to start it than that generator can produce. I'm talking several times what it can safely put out at 120 Volts. If the motor was reconnected for 240 Volts and the GFCI was removed as it would need to be then being able to run it off the full windings in the generator you might be able to start it. Once started running it would be no problem. The issue is that the motor used will require a good bit more than the total rating of REAL power that the generator is rated at. The KJ-1750 is simply a generator killer. Left as it is maybe a good heavy built 10,000 Watt USA built generator could start it and especially if it was wired up as a 120 Volt only machine. The Yamaha is not designed to be reconnected as a 120 Volts only generator. Some USA models can be connected up as such or as a 120/240 or 240 only generator. What we have here is a pressure washer with a motor that's hard starting and was not intended to be powered other than on a commercial building private 20 Amp circuit with either time delay fuses or a thermal magnetic breaker both of which for a few seconds will allow 100 Amps to pass through but only for a few seconds. I bet if the KJ-1750 were started, stopped and restarted a few times quickly the breaker would trip or fuse blow. Such is abuse of the motor.

                Please save your nice genrator and do NOT try starting the KJ-1750 off of it. There are several ways to deal with this problem and I really think the best would be to look at a small engine to drive the pump on the KJ-1750 or sell it and get a Pressure washer with similar water flow and pressure ratings but engine powered. Or just go all out and sell off the KJ-1750 and think about a new Jetter package like the KJ-3000 which would be a nice upgrade to a machine that would blast away and get the work done.

                I guess you might sell the generator and get a small trailor mounted big boy, but there goes some serious money.

                There is one last resort which would be to replace the eletric motor with one designed for 240 Volts and lower starting current. The problem is to re-engineer machines in many cases is a real PITA and then you get into safety issues too. Because of the water around and sewers being grounded and you not wanting to get zapped, I really do not like the idea of electric power for them.
                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                The best way is to sell things off and get the right machine. Go to Plumber Rick for advise on the brand and model jetter kit you want. He has been through this mess and knows what does work.

                Now if you could only find a nice loaded up money tree.
                What is above the line is me going PLPLPL. Forget that and just chat by PMs with Rick. While there are several ways to work things out, you don't have time to go rebuilding what you have and if you did then you can't sell them for anything of a reasonable price. You also have safety issues to deal with and especially at customer's places. What I might do as my own place just doesn't work when you are in business.
                Last edited by Woussko; 09-06-2007, 08:16 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

                  Woussko after looking things over that was the same conclusion I had come to, as well the generator is probly OK but jut not enough to do the job especially on 110, and would even be kinda iffy on 220 volts.
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

                    It really is nice to know that there are people out there who are willing to help when it serves them no benefit. I am amazed at the amount of knowledge and persistance of those who helped me through this. I am very thankful to everybody for spending so much time on this. Woussko, you have really helped me out and taught me a lot. There is so much that you have posted that I have never even thought about. I am grateful that I now have a better understanding of generators and electric motors.

                    I guess I will just have to forget about the generator option from now on. I think that until now I have been lucky -- the generator must have had just enough "umph" to get the electric motor started and running when it was new, out-of-the-box, but has now decided to take a break, sort of like a plumber's helper. I will take your advice and do no more damage to the generator and electric motor. You probably have saved me a few thousand dollars. Thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

                      BHD is a good help to many. I'm just an old howling hound dog.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: KJ-1750 Amperage/Load Question

                        Bruce

                        I would look into selling the jetter you have now and get an engine powered one. I would have to see it to be sure, but the motor and pump have got to be similar to a pressure washer. I have in mind making up what's needed so you can just buy a good (not the best but good) pressure washer and then setting it up for the jetter hose and atachments. Then the Ridgid could be rigged up as an electric cold water pressure washer. I'm sure a smaller auto or farm machinery repair shop would love it as it would be nice and quiet for them. The problem is doing all of this and the pain it might cause dealing with special fittings and such. Then it just might go pretty easy. Not having worked with a jetter, I'm not at all sure about fittings and such. This is where Plumber Rick and Drain Medic can be really helpful. Plumberscrack is a local and I bet he can help some as well if he is into jetting work. I have in mind that they can tell you about what does and doesn't work out for them. They are regulars on the plumbing side of this forum. Go say hi if you haven't and ask for suggestions.

                        As to your Yamaha YG5200D generator, I bet it would being a nice price right at the time of a big storm and mass power failures in your area, but then that's when you'll fall in love with it again. It is a nice one. By the way if you ever really want to sell it, I know of a Honda & Yamaha generator dealer in Laurel, MD that might help you do just that. The manager of the Power Equipment dept is a good guy. The front is all about motorcycles so you need to know about what's in back.

                        Now for all of us that have read about this, here's a web site. Go take a look at what they have to say about the YG5200D and the pricing. This place has nice deals.

                        http://www.yamahagenerators.com/yama...00d_pr_34.html

                        Main home page is: http://www.yamahagenerators.com

                        This is not factory owned. They are just a BIG dealer for Yamaha Generators. If you e-mail them questions they have been pretty helpful.
                        Last edited by Woussko; 09-08-2007, 03:12 PM.

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