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  • #31
    Re: what do you charge?

    Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
    Trade you a K-50 for a K-3800.
    Really?...you would do that deal?...Let me think about it

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: what do you charge?

      Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
      I truly think everyone was ragging on ya because you dissed a sectional machine.

      The thread starter runs Spartan drum machines like I do.

      RIDGID sells both, so they dance on both sides of the spectrum.

      Any man can judge another man's work, it's expected.

      Any man can judge another man's equipment, that's fine.



      Yesterday I reworked a shower drain involving my jackhammer, slotting the concrete with my diamond blade angle grinder and hand digging the dirt around this pipe to access replacement.

      I felt like a nurse with gloves on digging out a impacted bowel at a rest home yesterday, horrible. The cast iron trap had been leaking for years, the main line was backflowing to this opening by resistance.

      Finally when I get access to cut the cast iron with my diamond blade angle grinder, smoke starts rolling from the grinder, junk. My harbor freight dream tool finally died after making me........about $5000 probably this year cutting pipes, cast iron, concrete, galvanized, steel, copper.....all for $12.


      Went back to the days of punishment, used my 13 year old Dewalt sawzall that has no intentions of quitting anytime soon. Broke my carbide-fused blade of 2 years @ $19 a blade, resorted to my insulting bi-metal blade that took 12 minutes to go through a 2" cast iron pipe. Very insulted I didn't have my backup $12 grinder on the truck or at the shop.

      Once I get it cut, I took it out and showed the customer WHY I had to replace the piping since a cable would keep going into the dirt every time I tried to cable the drain from that vantage point. I then take a hose, run the sink which instantly backflows into the hole and I spray the shower base down where I've cut open the floor so it isn't so messy. Go to lunch thinking this is something I could of done when I was 18, being 38 doing this is horrible.


      Enough of the story telling.


      Had a 2" cast iron drain, switched from large to medium cables on my machine. Ran the largest cable attachment on a 2" line without getting into trouble on the fittings/turn of directions.

      Dragged the machine around to the area I was working in, no steps, ran the machine with the powerfeed slightly in a forward motion with 2 hands on the cable, the machine moving the cable through the drain while I guided the cable from powerfeed to drain opening. If I carried a length of flexible tubing with me from powerfeed to drain opening, I wouldn't even be touching the cable OR guiding it, it would do it all just like an Easy-Spin.

      This was aged waste as I was dealing with the black pastey stuff and it took 3 passes with my machine, the cable turning conistently in a clockwise motion from the second it enters the drain, from the last second it reverses out. NOT only spinning only when a clutch is engaged to create movement.

      When I reached the end of my cable, I used little physical force to reach over and push my powerfeed lever maybe 2"......set the machine to slowly crawl that cable back and better yet, put the machine in auto-pilot by lifting the front of the machine and putting my air switch underneath so the machine would operate without me being there.

      Yep, me me me went up to my truck while my machine rodded out the drain in a clockwise motion, slowly reversing that cable back out of the drain while that cutter is moving at a brisk pace, cutting whether it's moving forward or backwards, my cables with the slight bends/bows/curls through the CONSTANT revolution of the machine turning.....hitting the sidewalls of the pipe, fittings as my fat *** went up to the truck to get a drink of water, take some pain pills and eat some chocolate chip cookies.

      Come back, the machine doing exactly what it was doing when I left it, working the drain like a magician making money appear in his hands. I push the machine the rest of the way into fast reverse and check my attachment, run water, still some backflow.

      Each pass got easier, each time on the reverse I repeated the trick with the air switch knowing the time span I had to work with, let the machine pull all the cable back without me being involved, physically.

      The second and third times on the return.....I cleaned up the area, repacked tools on the truck, ate more cookies, drank some chocolate milk as part of a heart healthy diet and came back to see my machine working like I paid the good money for it to do; perform without my constant involvement.

      The machine did all the work, not me. I just guided the cable and the machine did the rest. Best 7 grand I've ever spent in the biz and I'd spend 20 grand if it cost that to have the simplicity of how these work.


      SO, with my most recent task in print now.....I'll say that I don't give two ***** about not getting on a roof. In all my years I've done drain cleaning, 2 calls resorted to a rooftop cleaning, only one of them I did myself and homey don't belong on no 9/12 pitched roof with ANYTHING but a good life insurance policy.

      Attics? Never. I can sell the customer the dire necessity that they need given access to hit that trouble drain from a reasonable vantage point on the effing ground, not up in the air where you can be liable for a leaking roof or gutter because you had to touch it. I personally don't want to take an easy vantage point for the customer to save money on a trouble drain. That's why I'm in this business; make money and provide a living for myself.

      You're no hero and don't get a freaking cookie for saving the customer money for monkeying up on a roof because the drain access is prohibitive to a walk up and access.

      TELL THEM you have to open that sink backwall or bust that floor up and put a cleanout in. TELL THEM you will spend money initially to perform this task but you tell them in the future that the costs will go down considerably when the plumber can instantly wheel the machine right to the mouth of the drain, access it and spend less time. That equates to a significant work burden on you and you can charge less in the future, save the customer (they think that) since you made a fine dime working that drain so you CAN get it open without little or no effort.

      This business is a great deal about salesmanship and yes I try to save people money but I look into my business checking account first as to whether I want to give the cheaper version drain cleaning or the "fix the problem" antics to get a more robust charge for the service.

      And if you hear the statement, "Well the last guy got up on the roof with no problem." .......your screwed with the above implied thinking. But it kinda makes you wonder why the last superhero plumber who DID get on the roof,

      isn't there rodding that drain making money like you now are.


      Instead of having the users of these products throw instances of what is better, why don't the makers of RIDGID products involving these drain cleaning machines get on a thread like this and put their two cents into the mix.

      I'm sure this is plausible because they have home court advantage with the coin toss dealing heads, you're the first with the ball.

      Ever thought RIDGID might take offense to board members supporting one type of product and constantly bashing another? You know they DID build them both to make a buck, if the innocent guest or forum member comes to this site to gain vital info on buying equipment relating to drain maintenance...


      They are going to get mixed opinions of why there is such a slant coming from the product owners themselves.


      You want a challenge? I'll put up a grand ($1000) that I can bang a drain out with such finesse that I can do it without sweating, I can make it look like I stole that drain cleaning charge to the customer because I made it look so damn simple when I dragged that machine into the home, flipped a cleanout cap out and in less than 5-10 minutes on the average, be loading that machine back up because I one-handed that cable into the drain....

      One to get it inside the test tee,

      One when the cable raised up when the cable maneuvered a fitting or obstruction.

      Hell let's play with wood; let's take 4" PVC pipe, drill holes in it and drive large wood dowels through it, set both machines up at the end of the pipe and see which machine wants to instantly turn over because of the torque delivering back to the motor that's turning that cable. Let's see which one becomes extremely dangerous to "break-through" a hard obstruction such as this. Dangerous? Yes. But it's the best test to show the capabilities/limitations of BOTH machines.

      Better yet???


      When I tore my left rotator cup earlier this year, I continued to work. I ran a few main drains with my left arm practically dangling by my side in the majority of the time because I could barely use it. Maybe use it to carry my footstool so I could sit down and watch my machine make me money, of course giving it a helping hand every now and then.

      There's my offer sectional machine users; put up or shut up. I'm putting my 300 machine with both drums to the challenge, I can do it in less time, less effort and less space on my plumbing rig and I never have to hose my cables down if I don't want to.

      One trip to the truck if I can manage a roll of paper towels, my metal mitts, my 2' aluminum pipe wrench and my footstool with my hand dragging my machine with the other. I've done it before and can do it again.....


      Game on.



      Can I have an amen?
      AMEN ! ! !
      3 CHEERS FOR A 300 MACHINE THATS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT

      JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER & MASTERDRAINMAN
      JERRYMAC
      E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
      CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
      FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
      SINCE JAN. 1989

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: what do you charge?


        I tried a sectional 7/8" to do a main line for a good buddy and busniess partner,
        it was the most dirty, tiring, messy, drain job i have had in the last 5 years,

        i will sick with a good TROJAN OR SPARTAN
        drum machine any time i agree with MR. DUNBAR, i have cleared too many stoppages
        with a drum machine even one time a 6" clay
        sewer 3/4 filled with concrete,
        if a drum machine won't get then it's "TIME"
        foe a good shovel and backhoe! ! !

        JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER & MASTER DRAINMAN


        JERRYMAC
        E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
        CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
        FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
        SINCE JAN. 1989

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: what do you charge?

          Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post






          Yep, me me me went up to my truck while my machine rodded out the drain

          as my fat *** went up to the truck to get a drink of water, take some pain pills and eat some chocolate chip cookies.

          Come back, the machine doing exactly what it was doing when I left it, working the drain like a magician making money appear in his hands. I push the machine the rest of the way into fast reverse and check my attachment, run water, still some backflow.

          Each pass got easier, each time on the reverse I repeated the trick with the air switch knowing the time span I had to work with, let the machine pull all the cable back without me being involved, physically.

          The second and third times on the return.....I cleaned up the area, repacked tools on the truck, ate more cookies, drank some chocolate milk as part of a heart healthy diet and came back to see my machine working like I paid the good money for it to do; perform without my constant involvement.

          The machine did all the work, not me. I just guided the cable and the machine did the rest. Best 7 grand I've ever spent in the biz and I'd spend 20 grand if it cost that to have the simplicity of how these work.





          Can I have an amen?
          I do that all the time

          I just posted this pic of a job I did today in the K-60 topic I started


          you get a BIG Amen
          Last edited by All Clear Sewer; 12-29-2007, 05:30 PM.
          http://www.all-clear-sewer.com/

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: what do you charge?

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            Dunbar,

            Sorry I'm not buying it as you act like we are forced to use sectional as it is all that we own. All of my trucks carried sectional machines and drum machines so we could use whatever we wanted. It just so happened 80% of the time we preferred the sectional over the drum. When I first came to this site a couple of years ago Rick had the same attitude about not liking sectionals. We had a few exchanges like what is going on in this thread and all of a sudden I found him bidding against me on eBay for sectional equipment. Rick still has plenty of drum equipment yet it seems his primary equipment is now sectional. I'm fairly certain Rick can and does buy what ever equipment he wants so why sectional now? Perhaps it is because that's what works best for him.

            Mark


            And there's not a thing wrong with that, you're explaining something to me that you told me that you have both types of equipment. My roo-rah was in defense of all clear not using sectional for the task at hand, having to consistently explain himself out for the reason of 3 hours.

            Originally posted by gear junkie View Post
            What's an "impacted bowel"? Is this a plumbing or a medical term? If this has to do with your anatomy-don't tell me. Lately I've been learning to much about your body.

            Well written post but I never would've left a drain machine to run solo. One catch and that would've be huge mess. I wasn't there so I'm sure you know the situation better than me. Did you go to college for English? You should write some plumbing articles or books, you have a way with words. This is not sarcasm.
            Impacted bowel is when a person stops going to the bathroom, meaning "make a bowel movement" and it goes for days without being brought to attention of the seriousness of it's nature. If someone doesn't address the situation, the colon can rupture and what nasties are inside can poison a person instantly. This can happen to people who are taking meds, in nursing homes or improper diet. It can make your stomach grow significantly because food's goin in, nothing is coming out.

            When it reaches this level and brought to the attention of medical staff whether it happens in a nursing home, home health care or hospital,

            a nurse has to put a glove on and reach inside the patient and literally "dig" that excrement out of their bowel because it is so large it won't pass rectally. Pretty horrible situation for the nurse, pretty darn relieving for the patient, but that's life and I was told that by more than one nurse in my day.

            Pretty good way to end an argument of whose job is nastier, a nurse's or a plumber's and I'll tell you right now; I'd rather deal with it in a pipe than in someone's ***. That silences the convo instantly, then she starts a fight I didn't take out the garbage. :sighs:

            I hand dug that dirt around the pipe, it was soft from the years of waste backing into the open area where the pipe had been leaking. Absolutely disgusting and no chance of a small spade or shovel; everything stuck to whatever you used since it was hard paste. YUCK


            Running the drain machine solo is a risk indeed, it's done in only select situations where people are not around and the worst thing is the cable reeling back completely, trying to pull past a stopped point (front of machine).

            That's never happened before and it's much easier to do things like this when you know your equipment well.

            Thanks everyone for the amens though!

            PC all I'm good for is soapbox talk.

            Just a plumber with good typing skills and 3 boxes of donuts besides thee.


            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: what do you charge?


              BY the way i have flat rated and hourly on drains,
              i prefer a hourly charge plus equipment charges for the use of snakes machines, and cables

              extra charges for drain acids in line, any thing from drano, upto acids that damages or ruins cables

              JERRYMAC MASTER DRAINMAN
              JERRYMAC
              E-MAILJERRYMAC777@GMAIL.COM
              CALIF. LIC. PLBG,HEAT,DRAINS,ELECTRIC,WATER HEATER, BOILER, POOL AND SPA HEATER
              FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR,
              SINCE JAN. 1989

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: what do you charge?

                WELL..I have found that overall the flate rate made me more money hands down!I take a chance that I'll get stuck longer on a job but the TRUTH is that I beat my (older) hourly rate 80% of the time. the other 5%the same amount time I would have charged anyway.THATS STRONG!!I was reluctant to do this @ first but @ the end of the year I made WAY more,am able to buy better equiptment,and Not be stressed out so much.My flate rate for example is:main line$178 residential,$324 commercial.w/different levels of difficulty(different prices)Per Drum.Kitchen sink line $128 (per reel).Hydrojet 1 operator$190 2 people$245. The list goes on and on locate cleanouts,upcharge for rooftops ect........The most amazing thing is when I show the customer my book price 98% say"ok do it." and are glad to know more or less how much it will be period.My invoices have a"proceed with work" signiture line,satifaction of work completed line,and a signiture line that states"because we have no control of what is put into a drain after our service,waRRANTY IS LIMITED TO TIME OF SERVICE" ,so a drain call customer will sign 4 times if you count the diagnosis box to sign(which is $55 bucks to come look ...if you decline) btw..no one has ever declined.
                On a different note I am seriously considering getting a sectional machine like a k-60 to fill a void in my arsenal.Mainly because of what I have read in these forums.I have used one awhile back.I have a question for those that have them,,DO the have POWER to rip ROOTS 100ft away or is it a fight??

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: what do you charge?

                  Originally posted by CAROLINA PLUMBER View Post
                  WELL..I have found that overall the flate rate made me more money hands down!I take a chance that I'll get stuck longer on a job but the TRUTH is that I beat my (older) hourly rate 80% of the time. the other 5%the same amount time I would have charged anyway.THATS STRONG!!I was reluctant to do this @ first but @ the end of the year I made WAY more,am able to buy better equiptment,and Not be stressed out so much.My flate rate for example is:main line$178 residential,$324 commercial.w/different levels of difficulty(different prices)Per Drum.Kitchen sink line $128 (per reel).Hydrojet 1 operator$190 2 people$245. The list goes on and on locate cleanouts,upcharge for rooftops ect........The most amazing thing is when I show the customer my book price 98% say"ok do it." and are glad to know more or less how much it will be period.My invoices have a"proceed with work" signiture line,satifaction of work completed line,and a signiture line that states"because we have no control of what is put into a drain after our service,waRRANTY IS LIMITED TO TIME OF SERVICE" ,so a drain call customer will sign 4 times if you count the diagnosis box to sign(which is $55 bucks to come look ...if you decline) btw..no one has ever declined.
                  On a different note I am seriously considering getting a sectional machine like a k-60 to fill a void in my arsenal.Mainly because of what I have read in these forums.I have used one awhile back.I have a question for those that have them,,DO the have POWER to rip ROOTS 100ft away or is it a fight??

                  Wow, you have alot of flat rating there. I see you charge more for commercial then residential. I keep them the same, this way there are no discrepensies as to why i billed them lessor more over residential and risk losing a customer. An example of my flat rate would be Main Line from outside cleanout 205. Main Line from inside (remove reset toilet) 285 (includes parts) I have many others, but do not charge differently btwn comm. and resid. I have access charges, service agreement charges, you name it. Usually never go over my time aloted for each task, If i do then there is usually an add on to cover it...for example, if a main takes me 2 and a half hrs and i have it aloted for 45mins, then i will sell a camera or a jet, for 1 to cover the lost time, but for 2 because there is obviously more then just a clog problem, or its a muck job that needs a jet.
                  Last edited by Drain Medic; 01-02-2008, 10:36 AM.
                  The History of Sanitary Sewers Good site on the history of sanitary sewers and cleaners

                  www.thedrainsquad.net Our website

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: what do you charge?

                    Originally posted by CAROLINA PLUMBER View Post

                    On a different note I am seriously considering getting a sectional machine like a k-60 to fill a void in my arsenal.Mainly because of what I have read in these forums.I have used one awhile back.I have a question for those that have them,,DO the have POWER to rip ROOTS 100ft away or is it a fight??
                    I have never really had a power problem with a properly sized machine (sectional or drum). With my K-1500 I was able to remove concrete out of an 8" line after a construction accident at the studios. I was also able to clear a 12" pipe with 200' full of sand during a rain storm but I had to supplement it with a fire hose. These were both jobs where we were called in because other companies failed to clear the lines. Whenever we got calls where someone else could not clear the lines we always went sectional.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re

                      Re: what do you charge?


                      Not enough, especially today. It's 13 degrees out, my MC tank won't work because I didn't bring the tank in last night.

                      I couldn't fix the broken hose bibb repair so I threw a straight stop on it to get the water back on. Would of been an ideal situation if sharkbites made a 1/2" FIP by 1/2" CTS adaptor.

                      I'm sure they do but it wasn't going to happen today.
                      Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: what do you charge?

                        AMEN DUNBAR!!!!!!!!!......i didnt know it was guys out there who loved the 300 as much as I!!!!...i will put my 300 up against any other machine also from ANY brand!!....i also agree that if my 300 doesnt get it, its time to whip out the back-hoe and shovel cause sometins going on in dat hole.....right now my ficus is on hydro-jetting for this new jetter i have for commercial buildings..etc.....i do LIKE Ridgid cameras, and locaters and i may even buy the gas sniffer 'just-because'....i also may buy the k-60 since i 'do' go on roofs for about $275 'but' i am 38 also and i dont plan on going on too many roofs any longer...also alot of guys on hear praises the k-60 so i may just buy it and see what it does but i will allways love my TRUSTED 300 machine!!!!!

                        l charge $85 for a Residential drain with a clean-out using the Spartan 100 or 300(kinda like a loss-leader) but ANYTHING else is a fee...$275 for mini-jetter(i actually use this thing everyday on residential k/sinks or washers since laminating those pics DrainMedic sent to me which helps me to 'teach' the customer why they need this)....THANKS GREG!!!....I charge $300-$400 for the Trailor Jetter(mostly restaurants and apartments)...$75 for bioclean,$250 for Root-X(anything that i am gonna warranty for 1 year,they are gonna pay...and guess what? i sell the HELL outta Root-X!!!)..CameraInspection $250..Camera AND locate $325(i will SOMETIMES Camera it for free if its a regular customer and roots are involved, because 90% of the time once they see the roots on the screen..the Root-X is SOLD!!!).........for 2008 imma up my $85 to $95 for residential drains WITH cleanouts(..you know those 5 minute jobs which are very easy)...which is still a loss-leader.....anyway i need to work on a price sheet for my new customers.....any ideas or examples please email them to me at drainsinc@sbcglobal.net...Greg you know i wanna see yours and Dunbar i'd like to see yours if possible....i can tell you are one of the smart ones in this game....NO DISRESPECT TO ANYBODY ELSE ON HERE!!!!!.....i welcome all advice and thank-you!!!!

                        Dunbar can i have some of them donoughts?....you see i caint spell!!!!(~:

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: what do you charge?

                          Originally posted by lonestardrain View Post
                          AMEN DUNBAR!!!!!!!!!......i didnt know it was guys out there who loved the 300 as much as I!!!!...i will put my 300 up against any other machine also from ANY brand!!....i also agree that if my 300 doesnt get it, its time to whip out the back-hoe and shovel cause sometins going on in dat hole.....right now my ficus is on hydro-jetting for this new jetter i have for commercial buildings..etc.....i do LIKE Ridgid cameras, and locaters and i may even buy the gas sniffer 'just-because'....i also may buy the k-60 since i 'do' go on roofs for about $275 'but' i am 38 also and i dont plan on going on too many roofs any longer...also alot of guys on hear praises the k-60 so i may just buy it and see what it does but i will allways love my TRUSTED 300 machine!!!!!

                          l charge $85 for a Residential drain with a clean-out using the Spartan 100 or 300(kinda like a loss-leader) but ANYTHING else is a fee...$275 for mini-jetter(i actually use this thing everyday on residential k/sinks or washers since laminating those pics DrainMedic sent to me which helps me to 'teach' the customer why they need this)....THANKS GREG!!!....I charge $300-$400 for the Trailor Jetter(mostly restaurants and apartments)...$75 for bioclean,$250 for Root-X(anything that i am gonna warranty for 1 year,they are gonna pay...and guess what? i sell the HELL outta Root-X!!!)..CameraInspection $250..Camera AND locate $325(i will SOMETIMES Camera it for free if its a regular customer and roots are involved, because 90% of the time once they see the roots on the screen..the Root-X is SOLD!!!).........for 2008 imma up my $85 to $95 for residential drains WITH cleanouts(..you know those 5 minute jobs which are very easy)...which is still a loss-leader.....anyway i need to work on a price sheet for my new customers.....any ideas or examples please email them to me at drainsinc@sbcglobal.net...Greg you know i wanna see yours and Dunbar i'd like to see yours if possible....i can tell you are one of the smart ones in this game....NO DISRESPECT TO ANYBODY ELSE ON HERE!!!!!.....i welcome all advice and thank-you!!!!

                          Dunbar can i have some of them donoughts?....you see i caint spell!!!!(~:

                          Thats restricted information that i can only share if you fly me out to Dallas
                          The History of Sanitary Sewers Good site on the history of sanitary sewers and cleaners

                          www.thedrainsquad.net Our website

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: what do you charge?

                            Originally posted by lonestardrain View Post
                            i will put my 300 up against any other machine also from ANY brand!!....i also agree that if my 300 doesnt get it, its time to whip out the back-hoe and shovel cause sometins going on in dat hole.....~:

                            my 300 is sitting in my outside shed the 300 is a good mid size machine, 5/8'' or .55 cable, but there are so many more options prior to a back hoe.

                            a k-7500 with 3/4'' is a stronger machine and so is a 1065.

                            then you have a k-1500 with 1.25'' cable that will eat a 300 alive. nothing wrong with a 300, but if the 1500 doesn't get it, then maybe the jetter will.

                            the k-60 does 90-95% of what i run into. but then i also have 1.25'' cable in the truck when needed.

                            rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: what do you charge?

                              Originally posted by Drain Medic View Post
                              Thats restricted information that i can only share if you fly me out to Dallas
                              lol...o.k. Greg...maybe for the weekend of the No-Dig Expo show that they have here...my $500,000 MANSION sholuld be built by then.......holler at me!!!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: what do you charge?

                                Originally posted by lonestardrain View Post
                                lol...o.k. Greg...maybe for the weekend of the No-Dig Expo show that they have here...my $500,000 MANSION sholuld be built by then.......holler at me!!!
                                $500k mansion.... I should move to dallas... $500k will buy you a 2 bed condo with $300/mo dues and not enough parking here. I took my 280 sq ft studio condo off the market when my best offer was only $180k; I make more renting it.
                                This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

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