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  • low flow nozzles for roots

    I have had little success cutting roots with my current jetters (5-6 gpm, 4000psi). I will pop the clog but will move through the roots washing them and leaving them still attached. I have always felt it is due to the low flow rate, which I have deliberately chosen to avoid using a tank. I have talked with some others here who have had success cutting roots at 5-6 gpm using a camera to watch and move nozzle as necessary. Would like to try this, and would like some help sizing a nozzle to do so. Have started a new thread on this despite having been given some direction already as I think this will be valuable information to all. If I get a viable system, will post all the info here (with video, If I can be that smart).

    I typically have 200'-350' of 1/4" hose on a machine. Currently have 330'. A pres gage at manifold shows about 1000psi at full rpm with no nozzle on end of hose. Pumps are rated at 5.5 gpm at 4000 psi. I don't mind tweaking rpm and pushing them a little for a little more flow. Prefer not to exceed pressure specs.

    Following questions are specific to roots. Prefer answers based on direct personal experience. Don't mind buying several nozzles to experiment; plan on it; want a place to start.

    - Should I see the 1000psi as loss in hose? If I want 6 at 4000 shall I ask for a nozzle at 6 at 3000? Would it be more accurate to tee the end of the hose and gage it, use delta-p from manifold to that point with no nozzle at full flow as hose loss?

    - Will extra pressure help cut? Shall I be looking to hit the magic jet size/number that will max out my psi at max flow? If I err one way or the other, should I err a little towards higher flows, and not quite get full psi when my pump maxes out on flow? Or towards higher pressures and max out psi capability before I quite get to max flow?

    - I have assumed a larger diameter nozzle, to bring the jets closer to the roots, will be best... any thoughts? I will be working primarily in 4" lines, sometimes with access via 3", and wold like to keep nozzle dia between 2" and 2.5".

    - Will, say, 6 smaller jets will be more effective or 3 bigger jets (or 2 or 8)? I can watch with cam and rotate as necessary to bring the roots into the line of fire... just worried about CUTTING them.

    - Angle of jets?
    This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

  • #2
    Re: low flow nozzles for roots

    Warthog makes a nozzle specifically for your size jetter. Greg and Rick says they're the best. Stoneage, the manufactor, says to only use 3/8 hose, 1/4" has to much friction loss.
    Buy cheap, buy twice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: low flow nozzles for roots

      I have 3... they are great nozzles, in fact IMO the best, but not for roots with my setup. I've tried them on a short (100') section of hose which should have less loss... no difference. I don't think the hose is the problem. If you know, from direct personal experience, that it is, tell me. If you've cut roots at 5-6 GPM, I wanna know details. If you are speculating, it's of less use to me.
      This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: low flow nozzles for roots

        Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
        I have had little success cutting roots with my current jetters (5-6 gpm, 4000psi).
        as you already have stated in an earlier thread, gpm is more critical than psi.
        sure it can be done, but it's slow and you need to know where your jets are washing.

        I will pop the clog but will move through the roots washing them and leaving them still attached. I have always felt it is due to the low flow rate, which I have deliberately chosen to avoid using a tank. I have talked with some others here who have had success cutting roots at 5-6 gpm using a camera to watch and move nozzle as necessary. Would like to try this, and would like some help sizing a nozzle to do so. Have started a new thread on this despite having been given some direction already as I think this will be valuable information to all. If I get a viable system, will post all the info here (with video, If I can be that smart).

        I typically have 200'-350' of 1/4" hose on a machine. Currently have 330'. A pres gage at manifold shows about 1000psi at full rpm with no nozzle on end of hose. Pumps are rated at 5.5 gpm at 4000 psi. I don't mind tweaking rpm and pushing them a little for a little more flow. Prefer not to exceed pressure specs.

        why so much hose and if you need the length , you need larger i.d. hose. there is way too much friction loss and therefore your gpm and psi drop. your pumps are rated for this 5.5 @ 4000#. what is your horsepower on the engine you have. is it geared reduced, direct drive or belt driven? see my post from last night on horsepower and gpm. remember gas h.p is not electric h.p.

        Following questions are specific to roots. Prefer answers based on direct personal experience. Don't mind buying several nozzles to experiment; plan on it; want a place to start.

        - Should I see the 1000psi as loss in hose? If I want 6 at 4000 shall I ask for a nozzle at 6 at 3000? Would it be more accurate to tee the end of the hose and gage it, use delta-p from manifold to that point with no nozzle at full flow as hose loss?

        this is the only place to measure your actual output. any other place doesn't account for hoses and delivery. try a 25' -3/8'' hose and then try your 330' 1/4'' hose for real comparisons.

        you need a a good glycerin filled gage at the end of the hose and your jet of choice. then you need to accurately capture the water. a dead ended pipe and bucket will work if you have a 2' jumper hose on the gage to mount it out of the way.



        - Will extra pressure help cut? Shall I be looking to hit the magic jet size/number that will max out my psi at max flow? If I err one way or the other, should I err a little towards higher flows, and not quite get full psi when my pump maxes out on flow? Or towards higher pressures and max out psi capability before I quite get to max flow?

        2500# will cut roots. it's the gpm that will do it faster and more effectively.

        - I have assumed a larger diameter nozzle, to bring the jets closer to the roots, will be best... any thoughts? I will be working primarily in 4" lines, sometimes with access via 3", and wold like to keep nozzle dia between 2" and 2.5".

        - Will, say, 6 smaller jets will be more effective or 3 bigger jets (or 2 or 8)? I can watch with cam and rotate as necessary to bring the roots into the line of fire... just worried about CUTTING them.

        - Angle of jets?
        the beauty of the wart hog is the large 2 jets that rotate slow. smaller jets don't deliver the gpm and more jets are too fine. a large single jet like a 0 degree nozzle will slice right through them. so it boils down to getting the largest nozzle your pump will deliver to the root. the 2 slow rotating jets duplicate this. but your hose is the killer and you need to tackle that problem.

        not knowing your h.p is just a good guess.

        contact stoneage and and give them your specs. they will walk you through the numbers.

        years ago when i had my first bigger jetter, i was hired by my buddy steve to locate a reoccurring problem at a commercial art store. they sold the stuff and used it too. the line was always plugging up and access was messy. i started with my seesnake to locate the problem. going off of memory it was 100' + down the line. over 8' deep and located in the street/ curb of a very busy street in westwood/ucla not knowing exactly what it was as it was still dirty, i tried to snake it. well i caught stuck. i couldn't get it back, but i was able to go downstream. i ended up pushing the cable and cutter downstream to the city manhole 200'+ downstream. removed my cutter and pulled back my snake.

        next day, i brought out my 18h.p 5.6 3000# jetter. i worked it to clean and camered to inspect. it turned out to be concrete from the original clay joint. hours later and using my camera to properly place my nozzle. the concrete was cut and the line was clear. to this day/10+years it has never plugged up. my buddy still services this property

        the combination of having the jets and camera to pinpoint the issue was the reason for my success. but a word of caution. the camera is not designed to take the impact of the high pressure jets. run the jetter into the line and pull it back without water to the point of you camera and problems. then pull the camera back a good 2' to keep it away from the real pressure. as you clean, shut the jetter, push the camera and inspect your results.

        last suggestion. have you tried the ridgid "root ranger" it's a 0 degree rear facing nozzle that gyrates like a surface cleaning nozzle. at a 0 degree impact, this will cut anything.
        i've never tried it as i don't own 1 , but i do like the principal behind the design. it should pull real good as it's all rear facing.

        please post you hose/ pressure test findings and your conversation with stoneage. my 1/2'' warthog is great. thinking of getting the 3/8'' for 3'' lines. but these nozzles i use on a trailer jetter.

        rick.
        phoebe it is

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: low flow nozzles for roots

          Rick, thank you for your input. I see you think the small hose is a problem. I agree there is some pressure loss in the hose. Hence my question re will higher pressure help cut. I will measure the loss.

          I emphatically disagree that there is any significant loss in gpm from the hose. It is a positive displacement pump. It is at full rpm. The unloader is not bypassing. There is nowhere else for the flow to go.

          Have you run 1/4" hose at 5-6 gpm? and swithed to 3/8" with improvement? Again I am interested in direct personal experience, not speculation.... I fear this is coming off as confrontational... I do not mean it to be... I am trying to point my first arrow as close to the mark as possible. I can theorize with the best of them, but I find there is no substitute for having been there. I don't really want this to turn into a theoretical discussion... I just want to know if you can say 'oh, yes, I tried that... it doesn't work, but this does.'

          I cannot see why it is important, but you ask so; two machines have 24hp gas engines, one a 22hp, one 24hp machine is direct drive, the other two are gates polychain.

          I have (3) 3/8 warthogs, duly prepped by stone age for the machines discussed. I am familiar with their capabilities on my machines.

          Do you have any direct experience on the other questions asked? More smaller jets, or fewer bigger jets? Angle of jets? You imply some advice there but don't state it directly and it is not clear if you know this from personal experience or are surmising.

          Thanks again, Alex
          This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: low flow nozzles for roots

            once again give all the specs to the people that make the warthog. they will have the proper jet size and hose loss formula for you. they did for me when i bought mine.

            i still know that the small diameter hose is an issue along with the length.

            the warthog is a 3/8'' thread and requires at least a 3/8'' id. hose.

            call them with the numbers and they will properly size your jets.

            4000# will cut concrete not to mention roots. look at the test on their web site for proof.

            rick.
            phoebe it is

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: low flow nozzles for roots

              Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
              4000# will cut concrete not to mention roots. look at the test on their web site for proof.

              rick.
              Rick, Have you ever tried a powerful pressure washer with a jet nozzle? You can use it like a hydrojet saw and cut cinder blocks and even flag stone!

              You are correct that the 1/4" diameter hose is too restrictive of water flow. He really needs 3/8" or better yet 1/2" hose.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                Do you have any direct experience on the other questions asked? More smaller jets, or fewer bigger jets? Angle of jets? You imply some advice there but don't state it directly and it is not clear if you know this from personal experience or are surmising.

                Thanks again, Alex

                you could ask them about a blank front jet. this will give you more pull and better rear cutting. the problem is that if you encounter a stoppage, the nozzle will have a hard time penetrating the clog with the lack of the front jet.

                once again the hose is the cause of your pressure issues. how do you know no water is bypassing. did you remove the bypass hose and see nothing?

                have you tried the real flow and pressure test at the end of the hose? 4000# is a very simple nozzle to size. 6 gpm will require a #6 nozzle. divided by 2. each jet will be a #3 jet. this is assuming there is a real 4000# at the nozzle and 6 gpm. you need to run the test to get the real numbers for your set up. also there is a front jet to account for.
                stoneage can walk you through it.

                rick.
                phoebe it is

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                  Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                  Rick, Have you ever tried a powerful pressure washer with a jet nozzle? You can use it like a hydrojet saw and cut cinder blocks and even flag stone!

                  You are correct that the 1/4" diameter hose is too restrictive of water flow. He really needs 3/8" or better yet 1/2" hose.
                  yes i have and i have a set up for hydro boring holes up to 50' through the ground. all water powered and will drill very straight. you don't want to be in front of this jet. i control it with a foot pedal or ball valve.

                  the hose is a real concern, but so is the length. problem with 1/2'' i.d hose is it's very stiff. it will work fine for straight runs, but a tight 90 or tee is too hard. i have a 400 foot reel of 1/2'' i.d and a 250' reel of 3/8 id. on my trailer. this gives me a choice for the job at hand. same principal as a cable machine and different cables to choose. you always want the largest hose you can get to work.

                  rick.
                  phoebe it is

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                    call stone age they will set u right up i would not put the blank front jet on because when you are wanting to cut roots you have to get the ones out in front of you before you can use your rear jets. i use my warthog 75% of the time but i am using a very different machine than most of you on this forum 4000 psi 18gpm us jetter well worth the money i will never use another cable machine after using this. they dont clean a sewer they only cut a hole so it will work for a little while. a jetter will clean it just like brand new and it will cut the roots out to where you can not even see them when you camera
                    Kyle Baxter
                    AccuJet Sewer And Drain Cleaning
                    www.accujetiowa.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: low flow nozzles for roots



                      4000psi @ 5.6 gal / min with reverse turbo nozzle = effective working pressure of 6000psi

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                        Originally posted by accujet View Post
                        call stone age they will set u right up i would not put the blank front jet on because when you are wanting to cut roots you have to get the ones out in front of you before you can use your rear jets. i use my warthog 75% of the time but i am using a very different machine than most of you on this forum 4000 psi 18gpm us jetter well worth the money i will never use another cable machine after using this. they dont clean a sewer they only cut a hole so it will work for a little while. a jetter will clean it just like brand new and it will cut the roots out to where you can not even see them when you camera
                        Kyle Baxter
                        AccuJet Sewer And Drain Cleaning
                        www.accujetiowa.com
                        yes if I had 18gpm though we wouldn't be having the discussion
                        This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                          Originally posted by Root Ranger View Post
                          4000psi @ 5.6 gal / min with reverse turbo nozzle = effective working pressure of 6000psi
                          what is it? did you make it? where do I buy it?
                          This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                            I think it is called the Aussie root mulcher. From
                            Australian Pump Industries

                            Who make the king cobra.
                            Here is the link http://www.spec-net.com.au/links/link355.htm
                            Last edited by Cuda; 03-23-2008, 02:59 PM.
                            Seattle Drain Service

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: low flow nozzles for roots

                              You cold buy it from them if you wanted to blow a lot of coin, really lot of coin, or just redevelop a similar one myself that works better and costs next to nothing. I dont plan to sell them = personal use only.

                              Comment

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